Exactly---It is Carla who would be left to suffer the aftermath, not any of us. she should not feel guilted into abiding by his wishes, especially when none of us has anything personal at stake. no matter what happens she will be left holding the bag.
It is her decision, not ours--at all
Re: Suicide card
by carla 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Junction-Guy
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mkr32208
nevermind
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cognizant dissident
How about life,liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
So, what is it your ghost making posts here Junction Guy? If you're still breathing, JW's didn't take your life did they? Are you walking around a free man today? How are they interfering with you pursuing happiness or doing whatever the hell you want? Did someone put a gun to your head to make you go to the kingdom hall or get baptized? Were you not free to leave at any time as soon as you realized it wasn't the "truth"? I give you valid legal and medical arguments on ethics and you give me exaggerative nonsense in return. Why don't you actually address the substance of my arguments posted previously?
Also giving someone blood with the intent to save a life is alot different than actually harming someone in a physical manner out of revenge. it is only going against their cult indoctrination that was perpetrated by a lying deceitful cult,posing as a religion.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not deny their members blood transfusions out of "revenge"? They honestly believe they are saving a life too, an everlasting life. The doctor honestly believes he is saving a life. The intent is the same in both instances even if one is misguided and misinformed. If the doctor deceitfully loses an advance medical directive, transfuses a patient against their will while unconscious, and then lies to them about it when the wake up, how is that not just as "lying and deceitful" as the WTBTS? Also, look up the definition of the word "cult" in a proper dictionary. It is synonomous with "religion".
Mkr said:You do what you feel is right, I will do what I feel is right. Like I said I don't CARE what YOU feel is right. You will live with the choices you make, or don't...
Oh, so now we all just get to do whatever we "feel" is right, except JW"s? I'm not asking you to care what I think or feel and I certainly don't care what you think or feel. You started this discussion on this discussion board and I am discussing the issues. If you only wanted people who side with you to reply, you should have put the stipulation in your thread title. But since I don't care what you think or feel, I would have just ignored your directive anyway, sort of like you would just ignore other people's medical directives. You are right, I will live or die with the choices I make, you will live or die with the choices you make, so why can't JW adults be free to die with the choices they make? You still haven't answered my question as to what gives YOU the right to override their rights to freedom of choice in their medical treatments just because YOU don't agree with it?
Junction Guy said: It is her decision, not ours--at all
Wrong again. It is NOT our decision NOR her decision to make. It is HIS decision to make! The law agrees with this. It has been fought and won in supreme court. He has that right to determine his own medical care just as you do! Why is that so difficult for you people to understand? YOU do not get to pick and choose who has the right to determine their own medical care! You are not even a qualified doctor. Even qualified doctors don't get to force medical treatment on adults against their wishes. Why is it that you wish for them to be able to do so? If they can do it to JW's they can also do it to you if they decide it is in your best interests. Is that OK with you?
MKR said:I think Cog is way out in left field. I'm not talking about someone who is a long term leukemia type patient who refuses blood (although you can bet your ass I'll be in there showing them how they are DEAD WRONG from the bible) I'm talking about emergency situations where someone has been shot or in an accident.
The difference is that blood is not a medical decision. If you can fool yourself that well... I guess that's why you call yourself cognizant dissident?
I may be out in left field but you are totally out to lunch! Yes, you are talking about somebody who has long term leukemia who refuses blood. You are talking about each and every person's right to refuse medical treatment. Since when do "rights" only apply to religions you happen to approve of. You said you had RN training MKR. So have I. Are you telling me that where you live and practice, you are allowed to take the Bible and go in and try to convert your patients to your religious beliefs. We would be fired in a minute for that in Canada, and rightly so, IMO. How arrogant for you to assume that your fictional leukemia type patient would give two shits about you showing them anything from the Bible. What if they were an atheist or a muslim? Or do you try to convert them to your religious and medical beliefs when they are in the hospital too?
Blood transfusions are not a medical procedure/decision? Then what the f**k are they? Why do they teach them in nursing and medical school? How am I fooling myself. I understand all the medical, legal and ethical implications of denying adult patient's rights to medical self-determination while you consistently ignore all those issues so you can continue with your vitriolic campaign against the WTBTS at the cost of the individual human rights of the very JW's who you so adamantly say you are defending! Your hatred has blinded you to the moral and ethical ramifications of what you are suggesting. You are no different than them, because you also would take control of other's rights deceitfully and claim it as "in their best interests" and use the Bible and your beliefs to justify it. You guessed wrong about why I call myself cognizant dissident. I suggest you and Junction Guy go halfers on a good dictionary and actually try using it! Then between the two of you, you might come up with the actual definition of the word "cognizant" and "dissident" as well as a logical argument. Cog -
mkr32208
Never mind... It's not important...
Your clearly not on the same page as me. I DON'T think people should be talked into committing suicide by a bunch of fools in Brooklyn. Most of them if they didn't die would leave the Borg eventually and then be grateful but what does it matter. It's a non issue for Rn's, if I was still working as an EMT or Paramedic this might be worth discussing.
To assist them with this blood issue is to assist in a NON medical suicide. They aren't refusing a procedure based on medical feasibility they are doing it because they have been lied too. I'm sorry that you can't understand what I'm saying...
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cognizant dissident
You don't have a clue do you?
You're right. I still don't have a clue as to how you legally and ethically defend your stance on shredding patients medical directives regardless of their religion or medical choices. You ahve not adequately explained to me how you justify this on legal or moral grounds. You simply make comments about me being out in left field or not having a clue. Is that the entire substance out of your arguments. See how well that stands up in court when one of those patients later sues your ass off.
I said the JW's DECISION wasn't based on medicine, you know that as well as I.
Yes, I do know there decision is not based on medicine. However, that is not what you said. You said it was not a medical decision. Yes, it is a medical decision that is based on religios beliefs. Many people all over the world make their health decisions based on cultural and religious beliefs. You are free to educate them in the superiority of western medicine. You are not free to tear up their medical directives and force medical treatments on them against their will.
No of course I don't take my bible in to talk to them. They are JW's they have their flipping bibles with them!!! I would ask them why they feel the way that they do and try to show them how they are incorrect. Of course you'd be fired your in Canada they want people to die it's cheaper!
No we don't want people to die in Canada, we just respect their wishes if they choose to do. Perhaps one of the reasons that so many US hospitals love to keep people alive, when all hope is gone for them to have any quality of life, is because their insurance hasn't run out! I can't help noticing patients without insurance don't have their lives treasured quite as much in US hospitals!
I'm done talking about this say whatever you want you do what you feel is right. I feel like if you don't your culpable in their deaths.
To be culpable in their death, I would have to be responsible for teaching them the nutty blood transfusion doctrine, and encouraging them to sign the society's nutty blood directive. I would have to be responsible for the law that tells me I have to respect that medical directive and their right to choose their own religion. Since I had no control over any of those factors, I have no culpability in their death. Especially if I did my best to educate them about the true benefits of blood transfusions and the misdirection of the WTBTS. No control over a situation = no responsability for that situation.
Cog
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cognizant dissident
Your clearly not on the same page as me. I DON'T think people should be talked into committing suicide by a bunch of fools in Brooklyn. Most of them if they didn't die would leave the Borg eventually and then be grateful but what does it matter. It's a non issue for Rn's, if I was still working as an EMT or Paramedic this might be worth discussing.
It is an issue for any RN's if they have are first to come upon a medical directive and "lose" it!
To assist them with this blood issue is to assist in a NON medical suicide. They aren't refusing a procedure based on medical feasibility they are doing it because they have been lied too. I'm sorry that you can't understand what I'm saying...
I understand perfectly well what you are saying. The major reason I left the WTBTS is because I do not agree with the blood doctrine. I think it is responsible for many lost lives and it is just disgusting. I think they have been responsible for a campaign of misinformation to their members and would like to see them forced by a court to print massive retractions in the Watchtower and side by rebuttals by knowledgeable physicians just as other mainstream media must do when they have wrongfully misled the public on issues. However, I do not advocate the taking away of individual rights and freedoms including the right to die without medical treatment of their illness or injuries if that is what a person so desires. This is not assissting in suicide by any stretch of the imagination. One must actively do something to assist in a suicide. To allow someone to die of natural causes without intervening is not assisting in suicide. It's not suicide for the cancer patient to refuse treatment and allow their disease to take its natural course and it is not suicide for a Jehovah's Witness to refuse blood transfusions as a treatment. It is stupid, I'll grant you that. But it is not suicide. No court in North America or Europe would agree that it was. You are exaggerating to make a point.
Also, medical feasability is not the issue. As you said, they make their decision based upon religion. They have a legal right to do that. You don't have a legal right to interfere with adults medical decisions regardless of what they are based on. What is so hard to understand about that?
Cog
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Junction-Guy
Like I said before, it is Carla's decision, and I would stick by her either way, for she would be the one left holding the bad no matter what. It is not up to you to guilt her either way, as you have no personal interest at stake.
And to answer your question, I too faced a blood transfusion issue when I was a child, luckily I didnt need blood, but had I needed blood, my JW parents,along with the elders would have fought it tooth and nail. -
carla
I don't remember the article but it was if the jw had no jw's around to begin with in an emergency. Meaning no HLC, no strongarming family, no jw's period were around. Not in the case of an elective surgery or planned ahead surgery.
It is not the job of nurses & Dr.'s to 'inform' the patient of their crazy ass cult issues. Nurses & Dr.'s have plenty other more important things to do and w/continuing education than to learn the ever changing doctrine of the wt. Their job is to inform -if you don't do x you will die. There have been a few times on this board where the ex jw knew more 'new light' re blood than the HLC and informed a family member that the wt does in fact allow fraction x. So here you have jw's who don't know their own policy, HLC's that are often not up to speed or possibly try to use their own influence of no blood when in fact the patient could have used a fraction and lived.
I still think the analogy of using chemo is not relevent here. I may be wrong but I do not believe chemo is given in an emergency situation to save a life in the case of an accident. With chemo a patient is given a few days to think it over if necessary, they can take the time to weigh all the options.
How are jw's not under duress and pressure? If you don't sign the card don't the elders, ms keep asking for it? Would you be considered 'weak' or possibly harboring apostate views? How is it even possible to consider a jw informed in the matter of blood? Are they allowed and encouraged in this life & death policy to research from all points of view? Could my jw go to a minister, now, and discuss it biblically? could he meet an informed ex jw who hold an opposing view on the blood issue? Could he go to a blood specialist and have them truly explain blood itself, the alternatives and what those are really all about rather than the wt spin on things? If your answer is no to any one of these question then they are not informed nor can they be by wt rules.
You do not agree with the assisted suicide argument? I take it you feel that the jw's wishes should be honored, his 'conscience' should be first and foremost in this matter? Isn't that the way it always is with jw's? What about those around the jw who do feel it would be assisted suicide to help a jw die for nothing but lies and misinterpretations? what about their conscience? What about the hospital workers who have to help care for and watch and wait for the jw to die? Do you know anyone who ever had to pull the plug on a mate or family member? even though there was no other choice? (they were really already dead per the doctor) I do. Intellectually they know there was no other choice yet they still live with guilt at having to be the one to make that final decision. Their conscience bothers them sometimes. Do you dismiss all others 'conscience' because jw's are what? gods org? I don't think so.
It appalls me that an org can even have the audacity to come between a husband & wife in such a way. To expect a member to sign power of attorney over to a complete stranger on a matter of life & death. If they want to be responsible for the death of a member so they can use that death to further their cultish mind control over other members then they should be responsible for the cost of the funeral, at the very least.
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Junction-Guy
Amen Carla, Amen !!
I get so sick of hearing about their concsience and their precious freedom, it is always about them. What about the family members left behind to suffer? What about children left behind that are orphaned? They dont give a rats behind about those people it is always just a conscience matter or they try to make it into some kind of freedom matter--nevermind that they have siphoned freedoms from their very own members.
I live for the day when this cult will be stomped out of existence. -
Will Power
CARLA & mkr:
maybe it's because I am also a UBM, but I agree
I also like the Junction guy's analogy - feed the addiction even til death because that is what the addict wants ??
doug mason:
In a blood transfusion, the blood does not symbolise the death of the donor.
QUESTION/comment
to a JW the blood transufsion symbolizes the death of the recipient then??? - a spiritual death, which to a witness is worse than physical death
if you survive the physical death by taking blood, the congregation then kills you spiritually - judges you FOR god, then they shun you?
so in a life or death situation, like an accident for instance, if you need the blood to live, the blood means life, if you don't get it you die
JW in same situation the meanings are reversed ???
When I used to smoke my brain believed it would die if I didn't get the nicotine - if I was out of smokes, I would go into survival mode. Even if I was crying and pleading my kids would not go to the store to buy them, give me money for them, light them for me, NOTHING! (not that I ever did that, but if I did)
I certainly have the legal right to kill myself with cigarettes, but until I cured my brain of its delusions I was not able to quit. Thank goodness there were people out there making it difficult for me to smoke, even tho they were trampling on my rights - governments, employers, strangers, friends, family - I didn't like it at the time and fought for my rights, but without all the education about cancers etc, warnings, and the "You Stink" comments I might've still been in the dark, as so many others, costing the health care system billions.
I believe its discussions like these, and others in court that will start to chip away at the sadly misinformed and manipulated.
wp