What Satanic Rituals???

by Nathan Natas 44 Replies latest jw friends

  • lauralisa
    lauralisa

    SixofNine! wrote earlier:

    In view of the obvious good that you can do with verifiable abuse cases, I suggest you think long and hard about giving credence of any kind to these unverifiable "satanic" ritual stories. Your work is to important to be sidetracked by sensationalism.
    I emphatically agree!!! This particular, critically important point cannot be over-stated.

    An article which brilliantly illustrates the serious limitations that exist within the professional legal and psychiatric systems to address the issue at hand is found in Esquire magazine, March, 1994 issue, page 76 entitled The Lost Daughter: How one American family got caught up in today's witches' brew of sexual abuse, the Sybil syndrome, and the perverse ministrations of the therapy police by John Taylor. I love this article for its salient directness; I also totally hate this article because it encourages the (understandable) sentiment to dismiss the legitimacy of ANY and ALL cases of this sickening topic. Accummulating, managing or analyzing the available data, in fact even IDENTIFYING it as pertinent - is difficult, if not impossible; any who wander into this quagmire of shit with the motive to assist are at extreme risk of any number of unpredictable outcomes, the least of which can annhiliate their professional and personal lives in a heartbeat.

    I can provide scanned copies of the article if it is inaccessible on the net, if anyone is interested.

    some other links for the brave and/or curious:

    Forensic Considerations in Ritual Trauma Cases Description: "Occasionally, a person writes an article that is outstanding, clear, and definitive. Ms. Gillotte has done this in this article, and her work shows the effects of ritual trauma on small children, and explains wh it is often difficult for them to disclose their abuse.

    From Paragraph 1: "Cases involving child sexual abuse, as well as other types of abuse, sometimes involve allegations that are unusually bizarre, or even incredible in nature. Such cases may actually be indicative of a far more complex and sinister form of abuse known as ritual trauma. While much is known about the dynamics of ritual trauma, very few professionals have the training necessary to effectively recognize and assess such cases. As a consequence, the bizarre nature of a child's behaviors and/or disclosures often leads professionals to discount the child's allegations of abuse altogether."

    From Paragraph 2: "This material is designed to assist and educate virtually every level of professional in the system dealing with child abuse in recognizing ritual trauma and understanding its basic dynamics. In addition to providing a workable definition for ritual trauma and describing its common elements, professionals are provided a comprehensive checklist of signs and symptoms..."
    http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/ritual_abuse/63761

    Satanic Ritual Abuse: The Evidence Surfaces Site's description of article: "This is one of the best articles I have ever read on the reality of ritual abuse with evidence cited that makes disbelief difficult"
    http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/ritual_abuse/80394

    Prejudice Against Survivors "This article discusses the experiences of prejudice in the community and church that survivors of ritual abuse have undergone."
    http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/ritual_abuse/78508

    Bleckkk,

    lauralisa

  • Mindchild
    Mindchild

    Nathan...

    You asked me:Skipper, who do YOU say I am?

    Well, personally I say you are pretty cool dude, but you are but a mere mortal. I will have to buy my hot gods elsewhere.

    Skipper

    All great deeds and all great thoughts have ridiculous beginnings--Albert Camus

  • waiting
    waiting

    Howdy lauralisa,

    Fine discussion on the pros & cons of credibility. And satanic abuse, whether coupled with incest and/or physical abuse or not, is a tricky subject. For every positive, there would seem to be a negative. Which, to me, makes good sense.

    If there is good, it would seem logical to be bad also.

    If there is god, then it would seem to be logical for evil to exist also.

    If there are people who profess christianity, then it would seem that there would be those who profess satan, or some form of *anti-*.

    If there are sick &/or perverted christians, there would be sick &/or perverted satanic believers.

    I just don't tend to believe all good - no evil. However, that wouldn't get me far in court. Hard evidence would. It would seem that there would be physical evidence somewhere.

    Since jw's aren't well-read in general, it doesn't take a stretch to believe that a molested person would visit a therapist. And since a lot of jw's are lower income, they might not seek the most educated, professional therapists. Thus, they might not get reputable help - and there are highly unprofessional therapists out there.

    I went to a woman jw therapist, who lived in Boca Raton, Fl, in mid-80's. She did me much harm, but got paid well. And she was a firm believer in multi-generational, organized, satan worship. True Believer. I don't doubt that she made some of her patients believers also.

    Thanks for the clicks - I'll visit. But this area has been so blown out of proportion on both sides, it's almost impossible to talk about it. And, as always, the victim looses.

    Hey Seeker,

    Once again, those who remember these events will never believe their memories aren't 100% real
    For once, you've made a wrong statement. I would suspect that there are those who question their backgrounds, their validity, their sense of reality & memory.

    Other than that, you've made some good points. Thanks.

    Trust me on this one.

    waiting

  • lauralisa
    lauralisa

    Howdy waiting!

    I'm glad you responded to my post, and I'm glad for an opportunity to engage in dialogue with you - finally! I agree with everything you wrote, so it's difficult to choose a point to expand on, and time is short this morning, but I'd like to leave you with a brain-teaser. If you are at all inclined to respond to it I'd be very interested in your thoughts, which I've always read with interest, btw.

    I just don't tend to believe all good - no evil. However, that wouldn't get me far in court. Hard evidence would. It would seem that there would be physical evidence somewhere.
    When are credibility issues important?

    Warm regards and hope your day goes well.

    lauralisa

    There is a dialectical relationship between apathy and violence. -Rollo May

  • waiting
    waiting

    Howdy LauraLisa,

    but I'd like to leave you with a brain-teaser. If you are at all inclined to respond to it
    Initial response: I hate brain-teasers because I'm no good at them. Makes my ego much stronger to only try what I'm good at. Stunted, but stronger.

    When are credibility issues important?

    Loaded question on several different fronts.

    Definition of credibility issues as to whom they pertain to: police, courts, professional mental health, news sellers, popular opinion, offender, victim, casual (not too interested) observer.

    For instance, in SilentLambs position - I'd be careful what I said about that if I were him. The easiest way to lose credibility is to speak of satanic ritual abuse, imho. That doesn't mean it didn't happen - it just means it's very unpopular to speak about such things right now. It seems a lot of abuses go through cycles of popularity and then seem cursed as unreal......and then come back as "much rarer than we thought initially."

    As for what Seeker spoke about - I agree in general. The vast majority of the publicized cases could not be supported with physical evidence - and/or get into Court. Does that mean they didn't happen? No. Does it mean ALL the cases didn't happen? No. It means there was no evidence, or not enough.

    As for credibility? I think it must be present on all fronts to have a discussion because of the flame potential of the subject matter. I wouldn't even try to discuss pros/cons with a closed minded person. Nor would I discuss with an avid believer. Middle of the road works for me.

    But..........to close off the possibility of ALL accounts 100% seems harsh and unreasonable. Are most accounts therapist/media/stupid clergymen-inspired? That's my guess. But, as with people who go to church.....there are all kinds - some acting almost opposite of others (jw's/holy rollers/catholics/unitarians).

    I would think if you put a seriously cruel (perhaps evil) person with a couple of other jaded persons - and they wanted to have some serious fun.......they could do something like this. But I would think it would be a small coupling - as secrets aren't kept that well, imho.

    As for multi-generational satanic ritual gatherings incorporating most of a town.......I doubt it. Small group of intelligent perverts? I could see the possibilities.

    I'm writing endlessly - what's your take? I haven't gone to the clicks you provided yet (went to ebay auction *sigh*). But I will go. From recent readings and books from Sidran Foundation, it seems that all sides are still out on this - and some other areas also.

    Look forward to hearing from you?

    waiting

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    waiting,

    Hey Seeker,

    quote:
    Once again, those who remember these events will never believe their memories aren't 100% real

    For once, you've made a wrong statement.

    Oh, it happens a lot! Otherwise my handle would be Sought...

    I would suspect that there are those who question their backgrounds, their validity, their sense of reality & memory.

    Other than that, you've made some good points. Thanks.

    Trust me on this one.

    Interesting. I will trust you on this one.
  • waiting
    waiting

    howdy seeker.

    howdy lauralisa,

    I've unlocked my e-mail (we had a caution around here a couple of months ago, some of us locked up, literally). Please feel free to e-mail me, as I will e-mail you this morning.

    There are several of us around here who've dealt with false memory syndrome (or not being false) and perhaps satanic issues (for wont of a better word). It seems the issue brings out the far right vs the far left quickly - very little middle of the road. I've read about JanG's devastating experience with her daughter. Real or not, it has the potential of causing much pain to families/friends.

    waiting

  • lauralisa
    lauralisa

    Morning waiting,

    Thank you.... I wouldn't feel comfortable posting any personal details on an international data board.

    I too read about JanG's experiences, and also Talley's. There are no words to describe my empathy and horror for what they and others in their positions have endured. The Esquire article I referenced was about a woman with whom I was -er - interned ? early in the 90's. She destroyed more people's lives with her allegations in a couple of years than can be adequately described. Many lawyers getting rich on it still, I would imagine. The phenomenal program designed to bring genuine cognitive and behavioral recovery for those seeking it - they came from all over the WORLD - was seriously compromised, if not unraveled. Most of the staff were involved in lawsuits that hamstrung them professionally and they were all incredibly traumatized by the twisted run of events (it all started when her therapist, AS REQUIRED BY LAW, reported to authorities that her patient had confided in her that her younger siblings were then currently being subject to on-going abuse....)

    While I hate, and I mean HATE, the "false memory foundation" based in Phila, I can understand how and why it acquired the power and status that it did.

    The creepiest thing about that whole particular situation to me is that to this day, many of us do not know thing ONE about what was going on with her. (Whether it was 1.096% true or 86% false, if you know what I mean.)

    I also am acquainted with Marche Isabella, a practicing therapist in DC who, after assisting her client secure a successful lawsuit against the perpetrator was counter-sued, losing her liscence in California, necessitating her relocating. She is currently working on a book. There was a Dateline show about this fiasco a while back.

    All along, I've felt it was blatantly obvious that the legal system and/or the FBI are simply not the arenas to take these kinds of things. The crimes are about abuse of power, and yes they are crimes. But, as is obvious to anyone, the courtroom is NOT ABOUT TRUTH, it is about POWER, and is just another arena in which power is abused and influence can be purchased.

    I've deplored the lack of sources of genuine healing for survivors of any abuse, but persons presenting with allegations of SRA are some of the most bereft of help.

    LOVE IS WHAT HEALS US...... the kind of love that is the most demanding and taxing of all. Anyone (remembering Mulan's recent experience here) assisting someone through a terminal illness knows that it's difficult. You spend days and hours and weeks and .... up to your eyeballs in vomit and shit and despair. It is MUCH MORE ATTRACTIVE TO GET BIG POWERFUL WEAPONS AND GO AFTER THOSE BASTARDS. But hey, when the people who care the most are out there fighting a war somewhere, the victim and his/her excruciatingly difficult needs can sometimes be lost in the shuffle..... I'm babbling and have to get ready to go to work......

    Hope all is well with you.

    lauralisa

    It's only water from a stranger's tear (Peter Gabriel)

  • New Eyes
    New Eyes

    Training

    Swirling spinning dreaming bleeding
    Purple dances the masters tune
    Flashing blasting crashing
    Pink hidden in an empty room
    Loving daddy hugging teddy
    Hidden in an empty room
    The Dr. is in
    The Castile is in
    Training thrashing splashing
    Do it to sister do it to mother
    Please lit us be don't do it to me
    The box the box the box
    It's too small you see
    Don't do it to me
    I love you I love you
    Rubie and diamond
    One simple Simon
    I'll kill the puppy
    Don't do it to me
    I'll do it I swear
    I'll do anything
    Please get us down from the swing

  • ashitaka
    ashitaka

    Jesus, that makes me really sick.

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