Chikikie, do you have any personal experiences that you can share with your sister that would convey just how difficult and devastating the WTBTS was in your own life? I think what some of the members here are feeling is normal, however militant it may come across, considering the raw pain that resulted in their own lives as a result of their association with the WTBTS. My own experience with the JW on all accounts was to observe their overt suspicion of anyone who was "on the outside." As a matter of fact, one of the many things that caused a light to come on in my head occurred at a Memorial service. People sitting in chairs around me were introducing themselves to one another and there were quite a few "visitors" and non or ex JW present. One who was visiting who was a JW from another congregation in another city introduced herself and said in a hushed tone with a solemn secretive nod, and while her eyes furtively glanced around her as though she was among the enemy, "I am a JW." It wasn't what she did that got my attention, it was that it looked so normal to the Witnesses listening to her and nodding in acknowledgment.
So given the fact that your sister is considering returning to this religion of the secret handshake and the fact that the interpretations of a book that is already over 3000 years old that anyone can buy off the shelf are treated as though they are top secret, could her experience here on this forum be viewed as a reintroduction to a mindset that she will herself possess once she is reinstated?
What sort of thinking is it if you don't feel uncomfortable with the JW view of the world (and that includes you, you have said), and yet you feel indignantly uncomfortable with the ex-JW view of anyone who sympathizes with the WTBTS? As outspoken as some may be on this forum it may bring you a certain measure of comfort to know that no one here is looking forward to your inevitable destruction. They are simply posting their views in an effort to be heard and to arrive at a better understanding of your views as well. What they are not doing is copy/pasting information off of a disc that they have been given as the only source of information they are allowed to have, and then when you don't agree, just casually walking off firmly convinced that you are slated for destruction anyway and they, thankfully, will be left to pilfer all of your wretched belongings once you have received what you truly deserve.
No, that is the mindset of the Jehovah's Witnesses. THIS is a forum of free thinkers who are willing to blast away and take their lumps as well. The majority here have chosen to not replace their brain with a disc, and the result of that can be argumentative, colorful, hysterically funny, stubborn, sad, and all those things that make up genuine human experiences when allowed to move about in a state of free expression. The truth is, however offended you are by some here compares only slightly to how offended you are going to feel when your sister returns to the fold and lets you know one day that she is looking forward to life in paradise and having the opportunity to take part in the privilege of scooping up your ashes.
Yes, that sounds horrible, and very much like something members of a cult would believe.
It looks like I will become an elder this week!
by outofthebox 181 Replies latest jw friends
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Pickled
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shell69
Barvo ( applause) Pickled
Shell69
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reniaa
Interesting point pickles unfortunately my younger sister isn't really placed to tell me what to believe :s or share her experiences which I have some experience of anyway. and since you talk of me you get a reply from me!
I guess I have to accept being pro-witness in any way is gonna not make me popular on this forum :( although I think this thread was an unfair one to pick me up on this because to think being dishonest is wrong could be something I believe without being a JW and others on this thread said the same from their replies to ootb.
I refrained from posting on a thread with a 16 year old saying he should eat the wine and bread at memorial despite a number saying he should "Go for it" better spoken persons than I manage to say what I would have tried too against that.
What my sister won't tell you is she and I were both brought up by weak witnesses who barely could be said to be JW's they went to meetings enough to qualify but then went drinking and getting drunk afterwards with fellow witnesses who were weak too, as oldest child I was left at home to look after my sisters. I often used to hear my dad's conversations when he got home slagging off more faithful witnesses as a way to justify he own weakness, He left the Witnesses and left my mother eventually enjoyed his new "Freedom" which included majuana, a new wife and I have only seen him once since, his choice not mine. My mother did her best to stay a witness for a while but 7 kids to look after made it impossible, I do remember witnesses continually visiting and helping as they could but mum finally made it clear she too wasn't interested,
The last witness that kept visiting was an annointed witness I don't think he ever filled in a time sheet he just loved people, I don't know if any English EX-Jw's will remember him Walter Cook. He was a lovely man and would have been in or out of the WTS, maybe with him I have rose-coloured glasses but I don't remember any bad just him smiling at me and enjoying friendly cups of tea with mum asking how she was, I certainly don't remember any intense witnessing just genuine human kindness.
I am now a hopeless cynic and maybe a little arrogant as shell says (who knows) but I hate dishonesty with a passion, I've had a lot of hurt inflicted by dishonesty and none of it by witnesses. Do I think witnesses are incapable of dishonesty Hell no! I think they are equally capable of it but I won't condemn witness for things that would have happenned as well outside of the WTS. Have I got rose-coloured glasses about all witnesses hmmm I don't think so lol i once had a JW sister call me "Devil's spawn". For me the attraction is the teachings about the bible with JW's not imperfect people.
reniaa
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Pickled
Reniaa, I can understand what you have posted, especially the part about becoming a cynic. If you ever get tired paddling that boat, I will row for a while. :-) And if you read your posts as though someone else wrote them you will see this leap out at you..
She likes the bible teaching.
She likes the environment.
She considers the JW no better or worse than anyone else's.
She misses the family atmosphere the JW provided.
She has fond memories of faithful JW.
She does not see them as a cult, but instead as one of many religions who have good and bad members.
Because of this, I personally think that your hesitation and need to start a thread asking for input about whether or not you should return, must not be based on any of the attributes you have mentioned. It must be based on things that you have not shared, and btw I am not suggesting you share those things or implying you are under any obligation whatsoever to share them. You seem to be intelligent and reasonable, and so you can likely see why some are scratching their heads. Keep in mind that this forum often acts as a support group and a place to share a process, and there are those who are in the majority who are here to accompany others on that same journey who have that same need to share, vent, or ask for advice. You are one who asked for advice, and many have been trying to give it. And it seems that every attempt at advice has been met with a response from you that indicates that you have already answered your own question. Have you? -
outofthebox
To answer some of the questions:
No. I am not interested in get people out of the WT (Quoting Morpheous: Some minds are so attached to the Matrix, that it is dangerous to free them).
I just want people to think for themselves, then they can make their decision. (To quote Morpheous again: I am only offering the truth, nothing more).
-ootb
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Pickled
I want to add a brief observation based on your most current post here in response to what I wrote to your sister. You mentioned the posters here and their comments in contrast to your desire to not be dishonest. Just wanted to point out that I in no way suggested that OOTB do anything dishonest. As a matter of fact, it was quite the opposite. I know that you were probably making a blanket statement that covered all in general, but I was the one you were addressing in your post, so I am responding in a self-specific sort of way.
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Pickled
OOTB, what decision is it that you prefer they make?
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outofthebox
I want them to choose for themselves whatever they think is best. But, I don't want them to be pressured by fear (like WT do). The Matrix is a prison for your mind.
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chikikie
Ok pickled....
My sister is 6 years older than me, my day left when I was 10 and she was 16, my father physically attcked my mother thruout their marriage, because of my years, altho I remember some of the abuse my sister being older remembers most of, including the time my dad jump on top of a door which my mother was under, she had to pretend she was dead and lay extremely still so he would stop and went off to bed in a stupor, she has no feeling in her left side of her face due to this one incidence, i do not remember this, I havesome fond memories of my dad, but i do not keep in contact with him, wheras my sister has tried on many ocassions to gain a relationship with him, I have three other sisters, my sister rachel is 1 year younger than reniaa and she wont even talk to him, my sister is an incredably forgiving person, she seems to forgive many people awful transgressions, wheras altho Im quite forgicing there are some things which i cannot forgive. we have talked extensively on this, one of our major agruments has been on shunning, I recieved plenty of shunning, sometimes I felt invisable, I was always the last one paired up in the field service, married brothers sometimes elders would touch me up at meetings, all this because i was pretty, but considered spiritually weak, at the age of 24 some elders wives and other older sisters put it upon themselves to get me married to a 64 year old widowed elder and encouraged me in every way possible, i refused politely with comments there is a big age difference, with replies this doenst matter, the new system is around the corner and we will be all young again so age doesnt really matter does it, there was an elder of 32 who i was really interested in, infact really liked at that time, I think he liked me, but the sisters who arrange the marriages (unofficially) dissuaded him, i was not spiritually for him, thus not a good choice, so my reasons for leaving was that I wanted to be loved married and have more children, So I moved to devon and started a new life without the JWs. My sister left because she was trapped in a marriage, before she went back to the JWs, she met him at butlins and thought she was in love, she read alot of romantic novels and he was her boss at the little supermarket she worked at, he was 13 years older than she was and she was 18hought , so a bit of power can make someone look incredibly sexy and she was attracted to that. Anyway marriage wasnt what she thought, i cant go into details as my sister would kill me, i have probably said to much anyway, it was loveless, she left to maybe meet someone nice and then go back I suppose, anyway as it transpires, neither me or my sister have had much success in the love and marriage stakes, we both have three children, well when she has this latest sprog anyway. Her view of the JWS has always been romantic and faultless, she likes the congos, she likes being apart of them, her own weaknesses and feeling unworthy is what keeps her away, and I stay away because of the shunning really altho my thoughts to going back and getting reinstated would be to stand up to them, at 24 i was unable to speak out, they thought i was a loser, now at 32 nearly, I want to say to their face that what they did was dispicable, i suppose in many ways I want closure, i want to stand up to the bullies and tell them they did not break me, im a success in my life! I hope this answers your question, im not as articulate in my answers as my sister.
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Pickled
Chikikie, I think the core of my wondering consists of whether or not you believe that the JW is a cult. I know that many people from all the different religions, mainstream and far left included, have backgrounds and personal stories that include various forms of abuse or pain. I can also understand how even at the ages of 32 and 38 your upbringing can play a major role in your decision making process even today.
But as adults, don't we need to consider the qualities of the religion itself as a valid and separate entity? If you only take into consideration what happened in the past as a gauge measuring the validity of a religion, then what you are doing is measuring a religion against things that no longer exist in reality. That allows the current religious structure itself to remain unexamined. Should one really decide for or against a religion based on the behavior of their parents? I think it's safe to say that your answer would be no. If the answer is no, then what that leaves is measuring a religion according to other standards. What are those standards then? Your sister indicated that she keeps returning to the Bible as her guide and source of fascination. If the Bible then is the standard, shouldn't the religion you are considering be a religion that aligns itself exclusively with those same messages contained within that same Bible?
This is the crux of the issue. What others have been trying to point out is the fact that this particular religion, the JW and WTBTS, focuses a very great deal on information that is not found in the Bible at all.
Let me be clearer. There exists a Bible and it is considered the standard for all things pertaining to Jesus Christ, Yahweh, Jehovah, the Lord, the holy spirit, etc. Many religions claim that they are using this same Bible as their same standard or guide for teaching and preaching. If one wants to find out if they are or not, they do a comparison of the teachings of that religion vs. the words in the Bible. An example of this process is when one is trying to prove that a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost does not exist. What method do they use? They compare the passages in the Bible with the belief in the Trinity in an effort to see of the two align themselves with one another.
I personally gathered a great deal of teachings presented by the WTBTS and compared them with the Bible's contents. Many of those teachings are not found in the Bible. I then decided that this religion did not pass the Biblical scratch and sniff test. That was not my only reason for saying no thank you. After all, there are many teachings out there that also do not align themselves with the Bible so does that make them a cult too? No, that is not what makes a cult a cult. What makes a cult a cult is based on yet another standard. What is that standard? That standard is an accepted definition of the qualities and characteristics of a group of people that indicate they are a cult.
So there is the Bible standard. And then there is also the definition of a cult.
Because the teachings of the WTBTS does not align itself exclusively with the Bible,
and because they have so many of the qualities that match the definition of a cult,
I said no thank you because of both. Isn't that really a Religions 101 method of comparison?