Criticism worthy of your time

by johnnyc 71 Replies latest jw experiences

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  logic&reason

  Nobody on this forum is going house to house trying to get others to read it...

  It's here for those of us who want it.
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  johnnyc

  Deep hatred for something often leads to irrational behavior, and unwillingness to consider alternative viewpoints. It can have the same blinding effect you claim the Watchtower places upon its members, making the criticism thereof hypocritical. Who would I consider more reasonable - a Islamic radical or Catholic crusader? In discussing a subject matter, like…uh, say “Who should control Jerusalem?”... how could I take seriously either one to give me a fair, balanced viewpoint? My point to this posting was simply state that many discussions are based upon frivolous statements coming from an extremist point of view. Obviously, everyone has a right to participate in such – as I do in pointing it out. I realize I might sound arrogant in expressing my feelings on the matter, but to give you some of my background: I am a 32 year old architect living in the Northwest. I was raised in the “truth” from very dedicated JW parents, and married a dedicated wife (full-time pioneer). I stopped being an active JW about 8 years ago, and I go to a meeting every 4 months or so. About 2 years ago I started an active search for “God”, only to be very disappointed in what I found out there, and have been disillusioned with certain realizations I had about the subject matter altogether. I’ve since been looking all over for information, and truthfully have been considering going back to being a JW (though have not acted upon it) based on not finding anything better out there. My wife is now pregnant, and this has hastened my desire to settle upon something. My visit to this site was based upon my deep inner desire to find a “smoking gun” on why I shouldn’t be a JW – yet most of what I have read so far seems to be rantings of an extreme position. It would be nice if there were some threads of discussion based upon serious matters, with reasonable views….understanding that “reasonable” is a relative term.
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  BFD

  johnny you already have one foot back in the KH. Just put on your blinders and let your other foot follow.

  Good luck all the best with that.

  BFD
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  avishai

  Yeah, here we go, the bi-monthly "You guys are bitter and stupid I never had a hard time as a JW or suffered abuse so OBVIOUSLY no one else has" post. Johnnyc, I've heard this so much on this board in the same condescending tone that I'm starting to think it's one or two people. Also usually includes "Well I searched other churches and they suck too, so the JW's must be right, etc." Go through some of the things people on here have gone through, or maybe read through the "best of" section, then come back and say the same thing. Otherwise you just sound like the elders, "Oh, come on being abused by so-and so was'nt so bad, now he's apoligized. I know he raped you and cut your arm off, but he's sorry, you have to be nice to him".
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  Poztate

  I am a 32 year old architect living in the Northwest. I was raised in the “truth” from very dedicated JW parents, and married a dedicated wife (full-time pioneer). I stopped being an active JW about 8 years ago, and I go to a meeting every 4 months or so. About 2 years ago I started an active search for “God”, only to be very disappointed in what I found out there, and have been disillusioned with certain realizations I had about the subject matter altogether. I’ve since been looking all over for information, and truthfully have been considering going back to being a JW (though have not acted upon it) based on not finding anything better out there.

  A first post from you claimed you were not a JW. Now it appears you are although maybe not a "dunked one".

  You said you are searching for God and after a "search" you have found all other religion beliefs (Islam) ? lacking but the JW's are doing great.

  You claim that hate motivates much of the discussion against JW belief (90%) but obviously have not looked at any doctrinal discussion as to why JW's have a flawed belief system.

  A few sites to begin with are www.freeminds.org and http://www.jwfacts.com/ follow many of the links provided. I don't believe you will investigate any further because you mind is made up the JW's are still the one true religion.

  The best think for you to do is to go back to the belief system of your youth. It can be a comforting belief system for some with only black and white answers and the certain knowledge that out of the billions of people on the face of the earth only you have the truth™ Try not to think about the billions that God will soon destroy at Armageddon. This time do it all the way. Don't do it half ways. Reach out for positions...MS, Elder, Bethel and Gilead. Pioneer and Special Pioneer as much as possible.

  The WTBTS will appreciate you. People like you are hard to find.
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  oompa

  Johnnyc....thanks so much for your approval....and thanks for understand how most people hear have ever right to feel bittter........and a whole lot of other feelings towards WT as a whole....and sometimes even local elders..........imagine that..........oompa
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  WTWizard

  Most people on this board are mad at the Watchtower Society for having ruined their lives. Some were defrauded by the everlasting life and promise of friendship at a time when they were down, and ended up having the use of their lives taken away. Others had no choice--they were born in, and effectively forced to get baptized by parents that were hellbent on getting them baptized by age 6 to satisfy the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger. They were usually baptized between ages 10 and 14. And then they get forced to pioneer during every vacation.

  Beyond that, the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger makes it extremely difficult to leave. This is no Catholic or Protestant church, where if you don't like it, you can just walk out. Walk out on the witlesses, and you lose all your "friends", and often your family. They will do their utmost to bust up marriages if one leaves. They also do whatever they can to get people enmeshed in the cancer so, if they find something wrong, they had better shut up and proclaim it as perfect or they will have their whole lives ruined.

  Additionally, despite their claim to political neutrality, it is a well known fact that they were NGO members of the UN. That tells me that, given a critical mass in a country with a lot of pull in the UN, they will attempt to seize control of the whole world and everything in it. They will effectively become lords, and we will all become serfs under them. The effect will be a Second Dark Ages, from which a renaissance will be impossible. Their "new order" that they promise, even were it to come up, would also resemble the Dark Ages more than any paradise.

  Is that reason enough to be pxxxed at the Watchtower Society?
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  BizzyBee

  About 2 years ago I started an active search for “God”, only to be very disappointed in what I found out there, and have been disillusioned with certain realizations I had about the subject matter altogether.

  Wow! I'm impressed! Two years and "God" had the audacity to not show Himself to you? Day-um!

  I’ve since been looking all over for information, and truthfully have been considering going back to being a JW (though have not acted upon it) based on not finding anything better out there.

  With all due respect - if what you say is true - then you are near to being a mo-ron. Din't they learn you nuthin' in arki-tek-chur skool?
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  yknot

  JohnnyC

  I am a bit on the same path but I am officially out of the JWs as of this coming June.

  I accepted my smoking gun finally....baptism. The WTS doesn't baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and holy spirit anymore.

  Why was the baptism changed? What does the Bible say about denying holy spirit? What does this change provide the WTS?

  Being that I was prepped for the legal department as my theocratic career....... I have tried to 'wait on Jehovah and not run ahead....but

  this change offers legal protection from future lawsuits. How? Simple it is a membership declaration a voluntary dedication. Was this what Jehovah had in mind, was this the spirit which Jesus encouraged? Why is legal protection needed why not trust in Jehovah rather then turning to the 'higher authorities"? Did Jesus make pleas to Pontius Pilate?

  Further the faithful and discreet slave scripture is part of a group of parables, parables that show an evil slave and Jesus rejecting those who profess to know him. Originally the FDS was all the IBSA, then Russell alone, then in 1927 it was switched back to all IBSA, then in the 30's Rutherford facing a membership that was creeping to the 144,000 decided to create the John class. He decided that heaven was sealed in 1935. Now of course forward to 2007 and Brother Barber is on his deathbed, no Armageddon has started (and Rutherford said tribulation was his incarceration) and after Barbers death their will be no one who professes annointment by 1935. So Barber dies in April and in May's QRF low and behold Gene Smalley (also keeper of the fading blood doctrine) writes that 1935 is an error. 1935 dismissal is rediscussed in Aug 07 WT then at the Annual meeting it is revealled the change in generation thus opening up the possibility for the GB to have members until Acts 1:11 is actually fulfilled. Why not go back and re-read the actions of the Pharisees and then compare all the things being suggested as things to abstain that are in fact matter of conscience. Go back and read the WT pubs from 1914 to present. Download for free the trial transcripts of the Moyles and Walsh cases. Ask if the WTS would still be UN NGOs if the Guardian hadn't outed them? Ask why the WTS is affiliated with the OSCE and what the previous WT pubs say about that organization which the WTS is a current NGO. Would you or any other JW be looked upon favorably for joining a paramiliary organization even if it is just to tell them something about the JWs or would you be encouraged not to be a member.
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  LayingLow

  johnny, Here are some of my thoughts on this. If JW's are not the true religion then it wouldn't necessarily follow that an ex-JW board would have the smoking gun of the truth. If you believe in annihalationism (hell = destruction) then check out Adventist beliefs. That is what Russell started his religion from anyways. If you think Witnesses have a lot of true basics then Adventism is probably the route to check. Maybe you could also explore Christadelphians.
  
  If you think an error occurred in Christianity before this, then I would check into Protestant denominations like the Quakers, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans etc... Check out Luther's five points and find out if you agree with them. If not, maybe you should go back further. Roman Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox Church preceded this. Investigate them. Who was right at Nicea? Read publications by Athanasius and the other Church Fathers. Check out the Anthology of the Church Fathers at ccel.org.
  
  I would verify my beliefs before I took a JW checklist and tried to see which religion fit. Research the Deity of Christ. That may open many doors for your. Was following some religion what Jesus wanted? Did he just want you to follow him?
  
  I offer more questions than answers but I think that all of these questions are valid. Truthfully, I don't expect to find those answers here though I do frequent this place. Sometimes I find helpful information but this is more of a place to vent than anything. I find that when doctrinal issues are discussed you can get both sides of the arguments and understand how as Witnesses we were trained to misapply and twist scripture.
  
  There are hurting people here. It's not a formal scholastic approach to Biblical interpretation that you will find. It is bleeding hearts. Husbands and wives torn over religious beliefs. People emerging from indoctrination that they have trusted their entire lives. Families, sons, daughters, sisters, and brothers ripped apart. I think you have a walked into a hospital and complained that everyone is whining over injuries.
  
  I actually agree with you that 90% of the things discussed here are not reasons to leave a religion. However, the other 10% are excellent reasons to leave a religion and better reasons to tell others not too join in the first place. If I'm molested by someone I may complain about how s/he's dumb, a misfit, dresses sloppily, etc... I don't do it because these are good reasons not to like someone. I do it because I'm dealing with extreme issues of anger/mistrust/loneliness that the person has caused. Please see through all of this... It's pain.
  
  At least that's my personal opinion. You're dealing with people who are hurting. When someone is in pain and you say that 90% of the things they complain about are not legit you may be correct but don't expect them to thank you for it.
  
  I hope you don't feel that I'm trying to come down on you. Just please be understanding.