Criticism worthy of your time

by johnnyc 71 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  TD

  Hello Johnny,

  I think you need to consider the community dynamic of internet discussion boards.

  Many serious issues have been discussed ad nauseam on this board over the years. For most in the JWD "Community" the issue of the "smoking gun" has been settled beyond any iota of lingering doubt many, many times over. The direct result of this is that the flow of conversation sometimes drifts into the banal.

  For example we could discuss for the 100th time:

  1. That the transfusion medicine taboo is misguided and wrong. The reasoning used to support it is some of the most miserably sophomoric collection of logical fallacies and violations of basic grammar imaginable.

  2. That there is no evidence to believe that Jerusalem fell to Babylon in 607 and a great deal of evidence to believe that it did not.

  3. That the JW parent organization routinely presents incorrect information (Some would call these lies) on everything from Bible translation to their own church history.

  4. That the entire Protestant notion of the Bible being a single contiguous work rather than simply a casually connected anthology is questionable.

  5. That the JW parent organization has reversed itself numerous times on serious medical issues. (And then claimed that they did not.)

  6. That the JW parent organization routinely misquotes and misrepresents authoritive sources they choose to appeal to in their literature. (Which is the whole reason why sources are seldom, if ever cited in their literature.)

  7. That the JW parent organization demands obedience in the form of doctrinal conformity as if real, plenary inspiration was being offered, yet is willing to accept none of the responisbility that would go hand in hand with donning that mantle.

  8. That the JW parent organization has no concept of science whatsoever and still to this day, teaches a collection ridiculous 19th century notions. (e.g. An all vegetarian antediluvian ecology.)

  9. That the identification of the "Great Crowd" in 1935 and the resultant tethering to a fixed date is on the verge of breaking the whole JW eschatology and forcing them to create a third group within the Christian era for which there is no biblical support.

  Were I a JW, any one of these would be a "deal breaker" for me, but they've all been literally beat to death.

  Or we could discuss something mundane like, "Hey did you ever have so-and-so for a circuit overseer and wasn't he a jerk?"
• 

  pseattle2

  I stopped being an active JW about 8 years ago, and I go to a meeting every 4 months or so. About 2 years ago I started an active search for “God”, only to be very disappointed in what I found out there, and have been disillusioned with certain realizations I had about the subject matter altogether. I’ve since been looking all over for information, and truthfully have been considering going back to being a JW (though have not acted upon it) based on not finding anything better out there. My wife is now pregnant, and this has hastened my desire to settle upon something.

  Why do you need to settle the matter?

  I mean, are you looking for an acceptable substitute that reflects the monotheistic thing? The old human -> mediator -> deity relationship? Will nothing else suffice?

  I'm truly not trying to be snarky about this, and I'm really sorry if that's how it's coming out, but your position is curious to me -- it just seems to me that if you're looking to "settle upon something" in the matter of religion, you really haven't figured out your question yet.

  For me, my mistrust of all religion has made me an agnostic, and I'm happy with that. I don't have a desire to settle the matter of God in my lifetime. I try to respect others' beliefs, and just try to find a common ground upon which we can relate and be friendly. I don't feel there's a need to impose a deadline for understanding God upon myself -- and I sure am not going to raise my two children as Jehovah's Witnesses, like I was raised. No 5-hour-a-week meetings or arbitrary restrictions for them; they'll get enough of that in school.

  I just find it interesting that you feel the need to settle this matter of God before your child is born -- and that you may "settle" for Jehovah's Witnesses because nobody else has stepped up for you. How can one "settle" to have a belief system? (I mean, besides the Governing Body and their two-thirds majority rule...)

  As far as your other comments -- yeah, there's bitter people here. They have excellent reason to be bitter. You're right in that we need to transcend that, eventually. It ain't easy. But yeah, you're right about that.

  As for the smoking gun you're looking for, if you haven't found it yet, you will soon. We all will. Just keep very attuned to the changes your Kingdom Hall is announcing, very very attuned. Whatever you do, don't stop questioning them, and don't let them bully you into silence.

  Welcome aboard, and take care.
• 

  mouthy

  You said>The beliefs many of you held as sacred, and worthy of spending countless hours spreading to other people, are now the focus of your malcontent.

  Yes !you are quite right in MY case ... But now I know that what I was promoting was not truth. Many years ago. many Dr were promoting Thlydamide( may not be the correct spelling) Women were praising it ,made them feel terrific. but MUCH later they found out it destroyed limbs,arms ,legs eyes,bodies....
  So I dont promote WatchTower "Truths" any more .... since I have had 700 go through our support group, & found out even though the WT doesnt use the NAME THlydamide it has the same results.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Mouthy

  Wow! What a statement.

  So I dont promote WatchTower "Truths" any more .... since I have had 700 go through our support group, & found out even though the WT doesnt use the NAME THlydamide it has the same results.

  Don't think it can be said any better.
• 

  johnnyc

  I’ve read virtually all there is to read on the UN issue, and I even emailed the UN directly for their response – to which I got their standard reply. I then went back to read a great deal of info the WTBTS has said about the UN over the years. Even though the society claims the UN is part of the “wild beast”, and states over and over that the UN is not the source of true peace and security, I cannot see reference to the UN being a “wicked” organization. Quite the contrary, I’ve found references in the WT literature praising some of the work the UN does for humanitarian purposes. Additionally, the adage: “the enemy of your enemy is your friend” could be applied to the UN/WT relationship based on the fact the UN is a champion of worldwide efforts to combat religious intolerance among countries who otherwise would limit those freedoms. Going further, the relationship the WT had with the UN was limited to what I would refer to as a “library card”. Granted, that library card came with conditions, which links the WTBTS to membership duties and requirements. Personally, I think the WTBTS made the wrong choice in terminating the relationship, and they should have embraced the idea of participating with the UN on certain global conflicts over religious freedoms. I would say a large percentage of JW’s have knowledge about all this, and most I have talked to haven’t expressed major concern over the idea of that relationship.
• 

  mouthy

  Johnny.... tell us how you feel about the WT kicking me out because I couldnt believe Jesus came invisably in 1914.? then told my daughter ,grand-children great -grand-children I am of the Devil because I dont believe that. So they must shun me......DO YOU BELIVE Jesus came in 1914???? I am interested
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Johnny boy

  I’ve read virtually all there is to read on the UN issue, and I even emailed the UN directly for their response – to which I got their standard reply. I then went back to read a great deal of info the WTBTS has said about the UN over the years. Even though the society claims the UN is part of the “wild beast”, and states over and over that the UN is not the source of true peace and security, I cannot see reference to the UN being a “wicked” organization. Quite the contrary, I’ve found references in the WT literature praising some of the work the UN does for humanitarian purposes.

  Do you think the agreement to support the UN charter had anything to do with that? Take a good look at their application to become an NGO. Look at what they said before they joined the UN.
• 

  Bring_the_Light

  I agree pretty much completely with Johnnyc's comments. I was thinking exactly like him before I recently went back to see some friends for the first time in 10 years. I seriously thought I might join up just for shits and giggles and hang with old friends.

  What I found is complete brainwashed insanity that makes me believe this is a very harmful cult. People I knew, who were perfectly lucid people, just like me, are now litterally insane with zealousness. Like can't have a conversation without gushing at me about how critical it is that I start studying and get baptized etc. It got to a point where it was clear it was a condition before they would continue to talk to me. These are people i knew very, very well, not just the normal "avoid bad association" deal. I've never been baptized, apparently there is an expiration date on the "raised in the truth" waiver for not being baptized but also not being worldly.

  I dunno, the insanity of it, and the suffering it causes anyone who does not believe what is not true is plenty reason to be a virulant anti-JW, angry man. So I am. I'm very much a tolerant agnostic otherwise, its the loss of lucid thought/cult dogma and social/thought control that loses JWs my respect.
• 

  Bring_the_Light

  Whoa!!! They actually claim Jesus came back in 1914? I always knew that 1914 was the big trigger time, but I never realized it was supposed to be "the second coming".

  Yeah, if they didn't lose me at the idiot notion that all of human existance has been defined by some woman eating an apple, that BS would have done it for me.

  For me, the whole deal doesn't pass the stink test. Not a single piece of doctrine makes any sense to me. Not a one. Maybe "there might be a creator" everything else makes my head hurt its so stupid.

  Eating apple = cause of all human suffering ..... yeah, probably not

  Big Bang did not happen.... Gosh, I've been meaning to ask "when god made the universe in 1 day, what would that look like?" dumbasses can't even spin science into supporting their crap.

  Breaking Gods Rules leads to God sacrificing his own son to himself so WE can be forgiven....... I don't even understand why people don't recognize that doesn't make any sense at all, not even close.

  Pregnant woman claims she was impregnated by God (thus no suspicion that she may have been impregnated by a much more fleshly cock is necessary)...... Comon' now. Side point, isn't it pretty amazing that of the two statements 1. "Mary of Nazareth was a lying whore who has billions of believeing she is he mother of god's son today" and 2. "Mary of Nazareth was impregnated by God himself" exactly one of the two statements is for sure true?

  To further "the truth" it is necessary to not listen to what anyone who does not have the truth has to say. Listening to lies could damage the truth etc. "the truth" seems to require a lot of maintenance in my opinion. Most other kinds of truth don't need nearly so much help, I have noticed...

  Earth is ~6,000 years old.... No it actually isn't (I have a degree in Engineering)

  Dinosaurs lived same time as people.... nope.

  Don't go to college.... Yeah, um, that rule came about as they noticed college grads never came back....

  I still don't understand what exactly makes JW's the "ones" that get saved. Is it the believing, the obeying JW rules, having your name on the roster, the preaching to others? what exactly is different about a JW from a relatively unsinful non-JW? Is just "knowing" that A-Day is coming the major advantage?
• 

  Free

  Johnny said "I would say a large percentage of JW’s have knowledge about all this" Referring to the UN abortion. I have asked allot of dubs about it and not one of them knew , It was definitely not common knowledge and until I came here I never heard a peep about it. The Cult mentioning the UN in its publications was a requirement of being an NGO and the whole thing is hilarious, Especially when people try to downplay it like it is no big deal. I remember being asked when I was studying the bible with them that if a glass of water had one drop of poison in it would I drink it. Dude this is no place for Watchtower supporters so go drink the koolaid .You will never win here.