Athiest or Agnostic? (page 5)

Narkissos

my own methodology when asked whether I am an atheist or agnostic, is to ask the person inquiring to define what they mean by these terms before I answer.

DD:

You need a word to describe your self that doesn't have theism embedded in it.
What's wrong with materialist or naturalist?

It's not about describing yourself: "atheists" can "be" a lot of things beside "atheists".

Philosophically the notions of "nature" and "matter" are nearly as problematic to me as the notion of "god". From this perspective I find it comparatively easier to accept a negative label like "a-theist" (which I mean simply as a honest confession that I do not suscribe to the belief usually called "theism") than a positive one.

Of course, if you actually construe "materialism" and "naturalism" as mere negative notions (meaning dis-belief in a "spriritual" or "supernatural" realm, or dimension) I can accept those labels, too. But in that case they don't express what I positively believe either.

BurnTheShips

I collect some wood and light a fire. I stand before it.

I know, it is a fire, and that it is burning. I see the light, the shadows cast, the play of the flame and the heat on my face. I can invite you over (hopefully with some scotch, tumblers and lawn chairs), and you would experience the same thing with me, and you would call it "fire".

And it would be good. We know the fire.

I planted a seed in a good location where it gets adequate moisture and light, I leave and do not return. Three months later, I believe there is a plant of the type that I seeded. Do I know? I know I planted the seed. I believe there is a plant.

I have a wife. I believe she is faithful. I am not with her every instant of the day and night, so I do not know she is faithful. But I "know" her character and love from its outward working, so I believe she is. Actually, do I really know her character? I believe her character is such and such, and the same for love. I can't "know" these things either I suppose.

If knowledge is only that which can be sensed directly and shared with others to be verified by their senses then God cannot be "known". He is unknowable. If God is unknowable, then we pretty much are all agnostic.

But I wait for a day when I will know.

Burn, who perhaps is an Agnostic Christian (if this reasoning is correct)

Deputy Dog

HS

I propose that most religionists are atheistic toward some Gods,

I don't want to start down the uncivil road, but this statement makes not sense.

If I tell you I'm theistic in my philosophy, what does that tell you?

It doesn't matter what I believe about God (number of gods, name of gods, and so on.), I would still be a theist. Theism is a world view. Atheism is a different world view. The both have different "sub" views within them.

Deputy Dog

Burn

If knowledge is only that which can be sensed directly and shared with others to be verified by their senses then God cannot be "known". He is unknowable. If God is unknowable, then we pretty much are all agnostic.
But I wait for a day when I will know.

So what do you do with Romans 1?

Romans 1:18

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Gopher

If knowledge is only that which can be sensed directly and shared with others to be verified by their senses then God cannot be "known". He is unknowable. If God is unknowable, then we pretty much are all agnostic.

BTS -- you nailed it. Technically, we're all agnostic. (The question is whether or not we choose to believe, and then further if we believe, in which god or gods of the myriads described by mankind do we choose -- or do we choose one or own. It's kind of like "Match Game" -- the most popular answers are up on the board. Choose one of those or make up your own answer.)

It doesn't matter what I believe about God (number of gods, name of gods, and so on.), I would still be a theist. Theism is a world view. Atheism is a different world view. The both have different "sub" views within them.

DD - so you're saying everyone who believes in a god or gods all are theists. While that is true, from the viewpoint of the atheist -- there are certain gods you do NOT believe in. So technically, you're an atheist in regards to those particular gods. People with the 'atheist world view' point that out so that you'll understand that we don't believe in ANY gods (including the Christian one) for the same reason you don't believe in, for example, gods of Hinduism.

Deputy Dog

Nark

It's not about describing yourself

Ah, but it is.

You can discribe the type of atheist you are. Just as I can discribe the type of theist I am.

BurnTheShips

So what do you do with Romans 1?
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Hmmmm. *rubs chin*

Attributes of God? As displayed in nature? We see power and wisdom in nature. These are "knowledge" are they not?

What do we do with this DD?

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Burn

Deputy Dog

Gopher

there are certain gods you do NOT believe in. So technically, you're an atheist in regards to those particular gods.

No! While I don't believe in everyones concept of God, I'm a theist pure and simple. It doesn't matter what my concept of god is, I'm still a theist. Atheism is a total different way of thinking.

Edited to add

I'm not a theistic atheist. Can't be both.

nicolaou

Attributes of God? As displayed in nature? We see power and wisdom in nature. These are "knowledge" are they not?

No. They are subjective interpretation.

BurnTheShips

No. They are subjective interpretation.

Then we are all agnostic.

You do not "know" someone loves you.

You believe they do, if their actions are consistent with what you think love is.

Burn

Athiest or Agnostic?

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