This kind of religious thinking is not just amusing, not simply something we can "agree to disagree" about. It is dangerous. "We mere humans can't know the mind of God, whatever He says is fair by definition, because He's God." Therefore: if one tribe invades and slaughters another to obtain land God has given them, it's fair because God says so. If God wants to change or break rules He Himself made, it's OK because He's God and we shouldn't question this. If slaughtering innocents seems monsterous to us, it's because we can't know as much as God. By this same reasoning, modern Jihadists flew planes into buildings....because their God was not to be questioned as to what was fair. This kind of blind-faith reasoning should not be tolerated in modern society, because it leads to unspeakable injustice and cruelty in the name of an All Powerful and Not-To-Be-Questioned force. PS: does this site not allow formatting with Firefox?
Why Adam and Eve were unfairly judged by God
by BreakingAway 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Perry
PS: does this site not allow formatting with Firefox? .............................................. It apparently doesn't allow it with Apple Safari either............................... most irritating!
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BreakingAway
He Who Controls the Spice Controls the Universe ! Oops, wrong story....
I just got home from work and noticed that this thread certainly took off.While some here obviously fully understand the point and premise of this thread it's also obvious that some who are so utterly infatuated with God, and the supposed eternal rewards they hope will be given them because of 'sticking up' for Him, that they can't get past the idea that he doesn't play fair at all ! So please let me 'splain it to ya...
"Who are we to question God ?!? ", "You think you know better ?", "God can change the rules if He feels like it, He's God for god's sakes !", "He can do what he wants ! ", "Might makes right ", "Leave Britney alone !!! "
You see, these statements defy all reason. Why ? Because according to the Bible: "God is LOVE " And love doesn't look for it's own interests.
If someone can read this thread all the way from page one to here, and more importantly read the Bible from page 1 to here, and still cannot see how God doesn't play fairly and changes the rules whenever he feels like it, I don't think there's much of anything I or anyone else can do.
When someone's mind is made up, practically no one can change it.However, if you can change the circumstances, or if the circumstances change by themselves, the person's perception might be altered and achieve the desired result of a changed mind.This is how sympathy can come about.A person may judge others harshly until they themselves experience the same circumstance, then their entire outlook can change.What does this have to do with anything ?
Put yourself in Adam and Eve's position.The mandate: Eat the fruit and the day you eat of it, you die.Very clear, is it not ?
How would you take it ? Is the fruit poisoned , is that why I'll die ? Well, a talking snake says: "You won't die, instead, you'll be like God ! " Eve is deceived and eats... and doesn't die ! " So she offers some to her husband.He's not deceived and thusly takes God at His word...that he WILL die; and in the day he eats of it.Take a moment and consider that.Eve believed Satan that she wouldn't die and ate.But as Adam looked into her eyes...she was VERY much alive ! According to the apostle Paul,Adam wasn't deceived, so he must have thought he would die.The day was not yet over.So whether Adam believed they would be executed or that they would simply die from the fruit, is really immaterial. Why ? Because it doesn't change things and this discussion is about God's role in all of this; a subject that makes some very uncomfortable.
There is a line that many believers are unwilling to cross.That God may, in fact, not be what He says he is.Or that the concept of God may not be what we think it is.
What seems to be overlooked by many when reading this account, is just how much information is kept from Adam and Eve.One would think that since the future of the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE is at stake, that God would do everything in His power to make available as much information as possible and to make sure everything is exceptionally clear.What IS left out, is the fact that NO mention of a FUTURE DESCENDANTS is EVER mentioned in regarding to eating the fruit.THREE people are involved God(1) who tells Adam(2), who apparently tells Eve(3)
Again,it's just them.Eve was not pregnant.No children had been produced and so there was NO reason to think ANYONE ELSE besides themselves would be involved, so let's not just make up what isn't mentioned in the BIble , 'kay ? Cause I've noticed that many apologists frequently like to take a ride on the Assumption-O-Rama when the facts get just a little too real.Again...
NO reason to believe that other people would be involved.However...
"Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned, and so everyone must die"Romans 5:12
Hello ? "Everyone" was TWO people.Apparently God decided to change the rules and kill yet unborn indivduals that had absolutely NOTHING to do with Adam and Eves sin ! Not fair !
"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity;
Oops ! Where the hell did that come from ? Oh, it was "God's WORD" as recorded at Ezekiel 18:20 Another example:David sinned,God killed his kid."Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David..."
NO reason to believe that a day had been turned into 930 years.I mean, that's one hell of a daylight savings time.I guess God decided, "Let em live until they have kids, then we can kill them too !" Awesome ! Thanks man, what a blessing.
But wait, there's more ! Because if you order now, I'll curse the earth on your account too ! Now the ground will grow thorns and you can eat bread in the sweat of your face for the rest of your days! Plus, for only $19.99 I'll give your wife birth pains like she won't believe ! I know I didn't mention all of these great bonuses before....but I'm cool like that !
Not only that, but God decided that if these two screw up; he would kill his own kid to "pay" for what everyone else did too ! Kind of the ultimate guilt trip, huh ? I mean humans get to live out the rest of their lives as measley good-for-nothing slaves condemned to death for sins they didn't commit and deal with the "fact" that God sacrificed his own Son to get back a future they never lost ! What a wonderful story ! And guess what ? If we don't appreciate it enough, he'll cap our ass too ! That's more than fair, isn't it ?
Yep.... God=LOVE
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owenfieldreams
EP,
I think we've driven this into the ground....You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and the rest of us are entitled to ours. To be fair, some of us, though we have our disagreements with the Org and organized religion in general, still believe in a Supreme Being as spoken of in the Holy Bible and think YOUR line of thinking is dangerous. You are basically saying that what YOU think, not God, is what's most important and that you, a puny human with very flawed thinking ability when compared to God's, get to be the final arbitor of what's fair and not fair. That, to me, smacks of arrogance and haughtiness of the worst kind. But, hey, it's a free country and you can believe anything and express any opinion that you want--so yes, we CAN agree to disagree....
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Bring_the_Light
would you be so kind as to give us YOUR count of how many times God lied or misled and Satan lied or misled in Genesis Chapter 3? Basically, I'll be astonished if your count differs. The phrase "It is impossible for God to lie" is a lie. Even with your theory that a lying god is ok because he's god is correct, the Christian characterization of the nature of the Christian god is not supported by the bible. You'll need to start a new religion to promote your "God is an a-hole, but he's God so he can be" theory. What is dangerous, my dear, is letting MEN fool you about who God is and what he wants from you. This idea that God can be unjust and he's still right is both dangerous and insane. God is "supposed" to be the good guy. Bring_the_Light
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Perry
Eve is deceived and eats... and doesn't die !
Can you introduce her to me then? Maybe just give me her address, you know so I can send her some chocolates like on Mother's Day or something.
When someone's mind is made up, practically no one can change it.
Yes, I see what you mean.
What IS left out, is the fact that NO mention of a FUTURE DESCENDANTS is EVER mentioned in regarding to eating the fruit.
I fail to see the relevancy to obedience. Moral obedience has it's own rationale does it not? Do I need a reason to do the right thing?
" Adam sinned, and that sin brought death into the world. Now everyone has sinned, and so everyone must die "Romans 5:12
Hello ? "Everyone" was TWO people.Apparently God decided to change the rules and kill yet unborn indivduals that had absolutely NOTHING to do with Adam and Eves sin ! Not fair !
Calm down there Breaking Away... take a deep breath. That's better. Now, let's just talk some scientific facts OK? Ever heard of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics? Systems and organisms (of which the human body is one) will break down over time unless an outside force acts upon it. Got it?
The premise underlying your reasoning is flawed. Your underlying assumption is that eternal life is the natural state of the human being and that God is interrupting this natural state of things. The truth is the opposite of your reasoning. Decay is the natural state of things and since God is the Source of Life, we are dependant on him to intervene and interrupt this natural state.
In other words, everlasting life is a gift and not a right as you intimate.
"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity;
Oops ! Where the hell did that come from ? Oh, it was "God's WORD" as recorded at Ezekiel 18:20 Another example:David sinned,God killed his kid. "Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David..."
Here you falsely suppose that babies are "good" enough to claim the right of eternal life. Again, a faulty premise that leads you to a wrong conclusion.
Ps. 53
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies
Breaking Away... the difference between believers and unbelievers isn't so much their logic as it is their premises that they base that logic on. The issue of what the premises are is far more productive than discussing the later organically grown logic it bears.
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EphemeralPleasures
No atheist believes any human has a claim on "Everlasting Life". The fact that babies are born innocent certainly does NOT entitle them - any more than any other life-form on the planet - to everlasting life.............................................You have not addressed my point above: people who believe, as you seem to, that God has a right to behave in a way which seems unfair or unjust to humans, flew planes into buildings on Sept 11, 2001..........................................................................................Whether that God be Allah, or Jehovah, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, people who hold this view are dangerous and we cannot merely ignore their insane insistence on the notion that humans cannot question God.
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CandleLight
The premise underlying your reasoning is flawed. Your underlying assumption is that eternal life is the natural state of the human being and that God is interrupting this natural state of things. The truth is the opposite of your reasoning. Decay is the natural state of things and since God is the Source of Life, we are dependant on him to intervene and interrupt this natural state.
In other words, everlasting life is a gift and not a right as you intimate.
I have to agree that everlasting existance is a gift. It is His Spirit that gives us life. The removal of his spirit is what caused men to start to die. Before the Flood God explained he would further remove his spirit and men's life would shorten even more.
Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years."
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moshe
Well, some might say that Frankenstein got a bum deal, too. Nobody worries about him. Ask a Jew if the story in the Garden of Eden is a literal event and then maybe you won't worry about Adam and Even any longer, either.
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Perry
Moshe,
This thread assumes a literal God, Adam, and Eve. That is the premise.