I started this thread to illustrate the conflict contained in two systems of thought.
Philosophy is a method. The method man has always used whether he understood or not is THINKING.
Problem solving and strategies involve method.
Philosophy deals with WHAT method man uses to solve problems.
"What do we know and how do we know it?" (Philosophy calls this epistemology)
Discovering what is real, true and useful is the purpose of Philosophy's method.
View this as a game which has rules. See if you can play and win. Any game with self-contradictory rules cannot be won.
You must obey the CORRECT rules or you forfeit.
Life is a kind of game. But, you have to figure out the rules to play successfully.
Ready? Begin:
Your mind doesn't create what exists. It reports (accurately or not) what exists. Your mind gathers data through your five senses and analyzes, sifts, integrates relationships and forms (accurate or not) CONCLUSIONS.
IMPORTANT: The conclusions you reach are the RULES of your game. They work or they do not work.
The task of Philosophy is contained in the word epistemology which means This is how the world works and how I know it
THE FOLLOWING IS ALL IMPORTANT:
There are only two basic views of knowledge in all of Philosophy. One is accurate and the other is misleading.
1.One view (Primacy of Existence) is that the world is external, real and independant of how we think about it We gather information (data) about the real world by our senses, trial and error, and apply logic to problem solving.
2.The other view (Primacy of Consciousness) is that we create what is true about the world internally with our own mind. Knowledge comes from within us. We already contain truth. We have only to discover it inside or by tapping in to a greater super-knowledge ordinarily invisible and mysterious.
All of mankind's misery, ignorance, conflict and turmoil flow from choosing the wrong one of those two views!
(or trying to use both!)
Science vs Superstition is contained in the dissonance between these two opposite methods of thinking.
I propose to demonstrate with the correct epistemology the fallacy inherent in the Anti-concept of the Trinity by using simple, clear laws of logic, existence and causality.
1. To exist, a thing must have identity. LAW OF IDENTITY. (It must be something specific)
2. A thing which exists must act according to its nature. LAW OF CAUSALITY. (a ball rolls down an incline, but, an egg wobbles and a cube slides, etc.)
A thing which actually exists and has identity and acts according to its nature cannot, at the same time, violate its own existence, identity and nature. (Anti-concept)
A square circle is an anti-concept simply because the identifying definition of what is a circle and the identifying definition of what is a square (LAW OF IDENTITY) are simultaneously nullifying natures which, therefore, could not act (LAW OF CAUSALITY).
Notice this: conceptually we can create a "square circle" by using the 2nd view of Epistemology (the false one). We merely
imagine it into existence. It violates its own definition and does not function as either an identity or a causality. In this view contradictions co-exist!!If we use the first view of Epistemology (the correct one) we immediately discover the violations and correctly identify the "square circle" as a NON-EXISTENT. A simple operation. Otherwise, we might spend our lives trying to discover the hidden nature and "truth" about square-circularity!
(SIDEBAR: The ancient Greeks with a straight edge and compass spent lifetimes of intellectual fervor trying to "square the circle". Later, mathematically, it was proved to be impossible. Correct epistemology would have saved them the effort.)
Any actually existing thing cannot contain self-contradiction without being a product of the imagination (Primacy of Consciousness).
FALSE DICHOTOMY
The false view of epistemology (Primacy of Consciousness) creates false dichotomies of MIND vs BODY, FLESH vs SPIRIT,
SCIENCE vs REVELATION and pits the imaginary against the actual. No actually existing thing self-contradicts. Only imaginary things do.
Mystics are fond of playing with the inherent contradiction of Primacy of Consciousness by TRYING TO CONVINCE you that you cannot trust your senses! Once they do, you can only trust WHAT THEY TELL YOU. You disconnect from your own mind and connect to their imaginary world with its topsy turvey "rules".
The correct view of epistemology (Primacy of Existence) is definable because it is demonstrable, it is measurable because it has identity and it acts (Law of Causality) in accord with its own nature.
Science has succeeded in bringing benefit to the human race because it rests on Primacy of Existence.
Religion and superstition has brought dependance on priests and revelators with Primacy of Consciousness.
TRINITY and its "definition"
The concept of GOD is either a product of nature (actual existence) or imagination (consciousness).
If God actually exists the identifying definitions will not cancel each other out. (square circle)
What is the TRINITY?
An identification of the nature of an existent Being?
or
An imagined super entity "existing" only in the imagination?
What is the test?
An actually existing thing cannot contradict its own nature. (square circle)
What is the definition of ONE? How does ONE-ness differ from THREE-ness? (either/or not both)
How does FULLY human differ from FULLY God? (the nature of one is opposite the nature of the other)
How is the FULLNESS of the FATHER'S knowledge simultaneously compatible with the LIMITS of the Son's knowledge. (Nobody knows the day and the hour, only the Father.)
Etc.
These are self-contradictory states of nature and violate the Law of identity and Causality.
The only way the TRINITY has been made to "exist" is by default appeal to Primacy of Consciousness!
How?
A different "reality" than the one in actual nature has been IMAGINED INTO "EXISTENCE".
This is called SUPER-REALITY! It has a SUPER nature. (The supernatural) i.e. heaven, spirit world, etc.
This separate and superior realm concocted by Primacy of Consciousness can be populated with any kind of being at all!
Deuces wild! You can gain entrance to this imaginary world only by shutting off your rational thinking. This is called BELIEF or FAITH.
In the real world a Trinity of superbeing simultaneously self-contradictory in nature cannot exist without violating the natural laws of existence.
The practioner of Primacy of Consciousness, operating with the false epistemology of deuces wild, merely wills into "being" a separate universe of imaginary spirit where contradictions can co-exist.
Human beings cannot operate simultaneously as rational AND irrational thinkers! Neither could we operate our computer with simultaneous contradictory instructions with a conflict and crash.
THE CHOICE each of us has is dramatic!
Which epistemology will we run our life with?
If we choose Primacy of Existence we have science, logic, mathematics, measurement and non-contradiction.
If we choose Primacy of Consciousness we have supernatural, self-contradictory, deuces wild imagination clogging our everyday thinking as we try to function in a real world.
Trying to mix the two results in a breakdown of irrational thinking and superstitious beliefs that don't fit everyday life.
Up can be down, black can be white and 3 can be 1 simultaneously simply because somebody's MIND insists that it is TRUE.
The choice of operating systems is yours.
Apply PHILOSOPHY to the argument of the TRINITY
by Terry 76 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Terry
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Terry
In a court of law it is the presence of CONTRADICTION which signals a lie to be uncovered or a crime committed.
Testimony which contains conflict signals the lie.
A disparity between testimony and evidence signals a lie.
Dissonance between fact and lie lies at the heart of truth-finding.
Why?
What actually exists and what is true is not self-contradictory!
Contradiction, dissonance, disparity and disharmony signal a WRONG VIEW.
Keep this in mind as we proceed.
Remember, there are fundamentally only TWO ways of viewing the world:
1. No contradiction can exist in the true nature of actually existing things
or
2.Contradictions can exist.
Right now YOU ARE OPERATING using one of those two systems. (Note: if you try to use BOTH you are automatically using #2)
How you view this topic is the result of which system you operate under.
The system you are using is YOUR PHILOSOPHY.
See next post....
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Terry
Okay, just one more and I'll start addressing your previous comments applying the laws of identity, causality and highlighting where you are flip flopping between Primacy of Existence and Primacy of Consciousness.
Thank you for your patience, comments and keen intellect!
Failure to distinguish between the METAPHYSICAL and the MANMADE lies at the heart of human misunderstandings!
That means confusing imagination with reality.
The world actually operates outside of our mind. When you start "improvising" a reality, super-reality, or supernature on top of the actual one you always get CONTRADICTION.
In Eastern Religion and Philosophy they were unaware of Aristotle and Logic while they were developing their systems of thought.
Consequently, Eastern Philosophy and Religion do NOT CONTAIN the law of NON-CONTRADICTION.
To arrive at a CONTRADICTION is to confess an error in one's thinking!
If you embrace an imaginary world now (or an imaginary world yet to come) you may be comfortable with inherent errors like this.
But, if you try and function in the real world you will bump into the results of a faulty Philosophy.
In the East they EMBRACE pain and suffering in the universe and ACCEPT IT blissfully!
Why?
THEY HAVE TO!! Otherwise, their philsophy doesn't make sense! (even self-contradiction can't succeed with itself!)
Keep this in mind. The choice is yours as to which system you use to THINK with.
Your results directly flow from your method of thinking and analysis!
See next post.....
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Terry
Nope, concepts are individualistic until you define them through consensus.
Sorry, our vocabulary and language come from consensus and agreement. Not our concepts.
In some contexts, "chair" may be limited to "dining room chair made of wood", or may be broad enough to be "anything you can sit upon including immovable boulders in the ground".
You are confusing language and identity. We use language to signal to each other. The concept of a chair (using the same language and vocabulary) must be understood BEFORE any modification can further narrow it to a given context. You illustrate this yourself by resorting to the narrowing process in using the words "made of wood".."movable boulders on the ground."
What you are missing is what makes a CONCEPT in the first place.
THE CONCEPTUAL COMMON DENOMINATOR.
When we are dealing with fractions it is the CONCEPT of the DENOMINATOR which signals sameness of kind. 1/4 2/4, 3/4 etc.
This is very simple:
Imagine you are in a dark room. As the sun rises vague shapes appear. Foreground and background begin to separate. Outlines appear and we DISTINGUISH IDENTITY from the DETAILS. We see objects which differ and objects which share commonality.
This differentiation is the at the heart of recognition! Otherwise, we could never call a chair a chair or a cocker spaniel for its breed.
DOG is the broad concept.
Cocker Spaniel is a narrowing of the concept to definitions.
In the sciences you have GENUS and DIFFERENTIA.
What is a species, for example?
CONCEPTUAL COMMON DENOMINATORS reduce things (entities, objects, etc.) to a unit of similarity.
This enables man to discover its IDENTITY by how it differs and how it matches other entities and objects.
Some "philosophies" say the "essence" of a thing is it's invisible spiritual nature, which we perceive as it manifests to our senses.
The wrong ones! PRIMACY OF CONSCIOUSNESS!
Hisss, booooo, hisss, booo
Are you a mind or a body? Do you think or do you feel? Does one invalidate the other?
Thank you very much for a vivid example of the FALSE DICHOTOMY which implies contradictions where they do not exist by means of Primacy of Consciousness.
The "or" seeks to divide the human into CONTRADICTORY natures.
The definition of what the mind is and the definition of what the body is do not conflict with the humanity of the person. Nor does our thinking and feeling.
By posing the dichotomy of either/or you allow us to examine the human being in terms of INTEGRATION of mind and body as contrasted with the CONTRADICTION of mind and body.
Primacy of Consciousness has completely separated the mind into a shadowy spirit that detaches and "lives on" when the body dies.
As a result humans become confused about what "life" really is and when death occurs.
Primacy of Consciousness creates problems in thinking rationally because there is no integration of nature possible.
Understanding is an INTEGRATION of elements.
Thank you.
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Terry
The Trinity is a conceptualization of something that is beyond all human understanding. As such, it is an imperfect conceptualization. As such, the Trinity, as it truly is, is a mystery.
Knowledge integrates elements. Contradictions signal lies, distortions and fantasy.
Why pretend you are defining and identifying an actual when the result is confusion?
The distortion of reality lies in the contradiction contained in TRINITY!
The human mind must INTEGRATE elements. Square pegs (anti-concepts) do not FIT in round holes (rationality).
The TRINITY is a metaphysical distortion. The TRINITY is a mental fiction. If it were viewed as imagination there would be no problem of distortion. Why?
Our rational minds only work when we fit what is TRUE (nature and identity) with what else is true!
Pinocchio and Peter Pan fit nicely in with George Washington and Nicole Kidman because we don't confuse the two groups by telling ourselves the are all EQUALLY REAL!
We create separate concepts of FANTASY CHARACTERS and ACTUAL PEOPLE.
Now we can use the concepts thoughtfully and with understanding.
You see what happens when you introduce an anti-concept into your body of knowledge and MIS-IDENTIFY it?
Mystery, confusion, conflict, argument, debate.
Thing about that----will you?
Thank you.
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S3RAPH1M
As far back as we can go into the ancient world, we find that all known cultures had a "Three-in-one" Triune God. The very first trinity was simply the three stages of the life of the Sun. A) New Born Savior at dawn. B) Mature, full-grown (The Most High) at 12 (High) noon. C) Old and dying, at the end of day (going back to The Father). All three were of course One Divinity - The Sun three different phases, but one God! The Trinity is truly a mystery...Like electricity, radio, TV, and jumbo-jets are all a mystery to the un-enlightened mind! http://www.jordanmaxwell.com/
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Terry
You may begin your questions at this point.
What are you giving lessons here? Hubris!
No sir. Sorry if I gave that impression!
I humbly offer a tool of discovery (Philosophy) which has been invaluable to my life in clearing up confusions I had as the result of being a Jehovah's Witness for 20 years!
When I first discovered that I had been given a corrupt operating system (viewpoint, philosophy, religion) I HAD NOTHING ELSE TO FALL BACK ON!
My toolkit contained no BETTER tools!
All I'm doing is offering for the people here on JWD a glimpse at what Philosophy can do when it WORKS.
If you don't want to engage this way I certainly am not going to insist that you do.
I learn from everybody here and I am only intending to try and give back a little by sharing something I feel is valuable.
Thank you.
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Terry
rapunzel:
I must respectfully inquire as to what point there might be in applying philosophy to the concept of the Trinity.
Philosophy is a tool. It is a method.
A method that works gives you an advantage.
I'm trying to do two things simultaneously.
1.Demonstrate two kinds of philosophy exist in every approach to learning. One works and one confuses.
2.Apply the working method to the concept of the Trinity so that it immediately becomes obvious what is wrong and prevents understanding.
In my mind, it is pointless to apply philosophy to the concept of the Trinity, as it is pointless to apply philosophy to the concept of God.
I must respectfully point out something here.
You don't realize that you ARE applying philosophy already! You just don't call it "philosophy". You use some heuristic in your thinking.
When you reach conclusions about things it comes from your methodology.
I'm offering a closer look at the two possible methods mankind has been using since consciousness became aware of itself.
That's all.
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Terry
Every individual brain is constantly forming new categorical concepts for his/her personal perception only that would not
make sense to an outsider.
You are confusing the act of forming concepts with the act of successfully communicating them to others.
Another thing: perception is done with our senses. The outside world comes to us (our mind) through those senses. What we do with that contact is, indeed, personal.
Think of it this way. The doorbell rings and you've won a million dollars from Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes!
The million dollars is the same million dollars for anybody who wins.
But---here is the rub.
What you PERSONALLY choose to do with it does not change the million dollars. It changes YOU and those you are in contact with.
Results of your APPLICATION of values, methods, etc. prodce the varying results (when compared to what others might do.)
Don't let us confuse the actual million dollars with how you choose to use (or misuse) it.
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Terry
My brain categorizes this or conceptualizes this as Power Source, Hardware, Software. Each stand alone in identity, but when put together make up the one thing we call Computer.
You are leaving out the most important aspect of identity and nature. Do you see what that is?
CONTRADICTION of identity.
The Trinity is not separate components, stop, end of sentence.
The Trinity is separate components each EQUAL in power, source, hardware, software simultaneously.
That DIFFERENTIATION was placed in the definition of Trinity by Theologians who employed Primacy of Consciousness.
Meaning what?
They had no problem mixing fantasy, imagination and contradiction with real-world concepts! But, they created for themselves and those who sought to UNDERSTAND what they were saying UNSOLVABLE contradiction!
If I demonstrate nothing else in this thread I want to get across that you EITHER UNDERSTAND or you do NOT understand the difference between (reality) METAPHYSICAL and MAN MADE.
Primacy of Existence only deals with real things. Real things don't self-contradict. Real things are conceptualized and defined with accurate language and communicated logically.
Primacy of Existence only deals with imaginary things (often represented as REAL!) Imaginary things are communicated by metaphor, poetic language and analogy which leads to mystification, confusion, contradiction. Only a mental state of BLIND ACCEPTANCE (faith) will resolve that conflict. (Shut off your rational thoughts and obey)