"Modern Bibles" Are Based on Wescott and Hort - Who Were They? Part I (page 8)

Satanus,
Wiki says this:
The Douay-Rheims Bible , also known as the Rheims-Douai Bible or Douai Bible and abbreviated as D-R , is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English . The New Testament was published in one volume with extensive commentary and notes in 1582. The Old Testament followed in 1609–10 in two volumes, also extensively annotated. The notes took up the bulk of the volumes and had a strong polemical and patristic character. They also offered insights on issues of translation, and on the Hebrew and Greek source texts of the Vulgate .
The purpose of the version, both the text and notes, was to uphold Catholic tradition in the face of the Protestant Reformation which was heavily influencing England . As such it was an impressive effort by English Catholics to support the Counter-Reformation .
Also, of interest:..............................

Ok, I will join the fray. You seem to think that Jerome's Vulgate is the result of some Catholic cabal.

Perry, my dear anti-Catholic, who compiled the Textus Receptus?

Desiderius Erasmus

What was his religion?

Roman Catholic

Also, Erasmus did not have the complete NT available in Greek, parts of it (IIRC in Revelation chapter 22) are based on the Vulgate.

You have fallen victim to a Catholic cabal. All your texts are sourced from apostolic Christianity, deal with it.

You've also commited one of the classic blunders, the first of which is this, never get into a battle of wits when you've forgotten to bring your own, and the second is this, never use a Catholic book against it's authors..

BTS

hillary_step

Narkissos,

You are wasting your time with Perry. The dial on his mind is set at minimum critical thought, maximum blustering faith, a setting guaranteed to keep him in perpetual ignorance, and to keep you dwindling away your valuable time.

I have often argued that some posters are so dense, and so committed to continually missing the point, that the only discussion with them that has any merit is one full of boot-shaped ad hominem's aimed squarely at the persons arse.

I think Perry an excellent example of such a poster.

HS

Caedes

To paraphrase John Peel 'that was so good I'd like to hear that again'

I have often argued that some posters are so dense, and so committed to continually missing the point, that the only discussion with them that has any merit is one full of boot-shaped ad hominem's aimed squarely at the persons arse.

Perry

Burn the Ships,

Erasmas was a complicated individual for sure. However, consider some of his works and you tell me if you think he was a good Catholic?

Erasmus wrote boldly against many of Rome’s errors. Consider some excerpts from his writings and remember that these were extremely bold words in those days, words that the Roman Catholic Church looked upon as heretical and worthy of death, words that very few were willing to put into print even if they believed them.

Matthew 23:27 (on whited sepulchres) -- ‘What would Jerome say could he see the Virgin’s milk exhibited for money ... the miraculous oil; the portions of the true cross, enough if they were collected to freight a large ship? Here we have the hood of St. Francis, there Our Lady’s petticoat, or St. Anne’s comb, or St. Thomas of Canterbury’s shoes ... and all through the avarice of priests and the hypocrisy of monks playing on the credulity of the people. Even bishops play their parts in these fantastic shows, and approve and dwell on them in their rescripts.’
Matthew 24:23 (on Lo, here is Christ or there) -- ‘I saw with my own eyes Pope Julius II, at Bologna, and afterwards at Rome, marching at the head of a triumphal procession as if he were Pompey or Cesar. St. Peter subdued the world with faith, not with arms or soldiers or military engines.’
1 Timothy 3:2 (on the husband of one wife) -- ‘Other qualifications are laid down by St. Paul as required for a bishop’s office, a long list of them. But not one at present is held essential, except this one of abstinence from marriage. Homicide, parricide, incest, piracy, sodomy, sacrilege, these can be got over, but marriage is fatal. There are priests now in vast numbers, enormous herds of them, seculars and regulars, and it is notorious that very few of them are chaste. The great proportion fall into lust and incest, and open profligacy. It would surely be better if those who cannot contain should be allowed lawful wives of their own, and so escape this foul and miserable pollution.’

In about 1518 Erasmus published (anonymously) Julius Exclusus (Julius Excluded), a bold reproof against papal glory and wars. It depicted the late Pope Julius II as a worldly Julius Caesar appearing “in all of his glory before the gate of the Heavenly Paradise to plead his cause and find himself excluded” (Huizinga, p. 84). In 1506 Erasmus had witnessed the triumphal entry of Pope Julius into Florence at the head of the army that had conquered Bologna.

c. Erasmus understood the necessity of uprooting the papacy, even though he did not have the courage to attempt it himself nor to openly join hands with those, like Luther, who were trying to do it. In 1518 he wrote the following remarks in his letters: “I see that the monarchy of the Pope at Rome, as it is now, is a pestilence to Christendom, but I do not know if it is expedient to touch that sore openly.” “We shall never triumph over feigned Christians unless we first abolish the tyranny of the Roman see, and of its satellites, the Dominicans, the Franciscans and the Carmelites. But no one could attempt that without a serious tumult” (Huizinga, pp. 141, 144).

d. Though Erasmus was not a separating reformer after the fashion of a Luther or a Zwingli or a Tyndale, he desired the Scriptures to be placed in the hands of every man. This sentiment alone set him apart dramatically from that which prevailed among Catholic authorities of that day, and it was a sentiment that was severely condemned by Catholic authorities. From the days of Pope Innocent III in the early 13th century, the Roman Catholic Church had forbidden the Bible to be translated into the common tongues and had put men to death for translating and reading the Bible.

Erasmus first expressed his desire for every Christian to understand the Scripture in his Enchiridion militis Christiani of 1501. “... within this scope Erasmus finds an opportunity, for the first time, to develop his theological programme. This programme calls upon us to return to Scripture. It should be the endeavour of every Christian to understand Scripture in its purity and original meaning” (Erasmus, Huizinga, p. 51).

Erasmus developed this theme boldly in his Paraclesis (meaning “a summons or exhortation” and referring to his summons for Christians to study Holy Scripture) which was published as a preface to the first edition of his Greek and Latin New Testament of 1516. “Indeed, I disagree very much with those who are unwilling that Holy Scripture, translated into the vulgar tongue, be read by the uneducated as if Christ taught such intricate doctrines that they could scarcely be understood by very few theologians, or as if the strength of the Christian religion consisted in men’s ignorance of it. The mysteries of kings, perhaps, are better concealed, but Christ wishes His mysteries published as openly as possible. I would that even the lowliest women read the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles. And I would that they were translated into all languages so that they could be read and understood not only by Scots and Irish but also by Turks and Saracens. ... Would that, as a result, the farmer sing some portion of them at the plow, the weaver hum some parts of them to the movement of his shuttle, the traveler lighten the weariness of the journey with stories of this kind! Let all the conversations of every Christian be drawn from this source. ... I think, and rightly so, unless I am mistaken, that that pure and genuine philosophy of Christ is not to be drawn from any source more abundantly than from the evangelical books and from the Apostolic Letters. ... If we desire to learn, why is another author more pleasing than Christ Himself? ... And He, since He promised to be with us all days, even unto the consummation of the world, stands forth especially in this literature, in which He lives for us even at this time, breathes and speaks. I should say almost more effectively than when He dwelt among men. ... We preserve the letters written by a dear friend, we kiss them fondly, we carry them about, we read them again and again, yet there are many thousands of Christians who, although they are learned in other respects, never read, however, the evangelical and apostolic books in an entire lifetime. The Mohammedans hold fast to their doctrines, the Jews also today from the very cradle study the books of Moses. Why do not we in the same way distinguish ourselves in Christ? ... Let us all, therefore, with our whole heart covet this literature, let us embrace it, let us continually occupy ourselves with it, let us fondly kiss it, at length let us die in its embrace, let us be transformed in it ... We embellish a wooden or stone statue with gems and gold for the love of Christ. Why not, rather, mark with gold and gems and with ornaments of greater value than these, if such there be, these writings which bring Christ to us so much more effectively than any paltry image? The latter represents only the form of the body--if indeed it represents anything of Him--but these writings bring you the living image of His holy mind and the speaking, healing, dying, rising Christ Himself, and thus they render Him so fully present that you would see less if you gazed upon Him with your very eyes” (quoted from John Olin, Christian Humanism and the Reformation: Selected Writings of Erasmus).

As we have noted, this sentiment was 180 degrees contrary to the position of the Catholic Church in that day. In 1428 Rome had dug up the bones of English Bible translator John Wycliffe and burned them to express its outrage with his work. The Council of Toulouse (1229) and the Council of Tarragona (1234) had forbid the laity to possess or read the vernacular translations of the Bible. The Council of Toulouse used these words: “We prohibit the permission of the books of the Old and New Testament to laymen, except perhaps they might desire to have the Psalter, or some Breviary for the divine service, or the Hours of the blessed Virgin Mary, for devotion; expressly forbidding their having the other parts of the Bible translated into the vulgar tongue” (Allix, Ecclesiastical History, II, p. 213). The declarations of these Councils were still in force in Erasmus’ lifetime.

e. As early as 1506, Erasmus expressed a desire to be completely devoted to Christ. “I am deliberating again how best to devote the remainder of my life (how much that will be, I do not know) entirely to piety, to Christ. I see life, even when it is long, as evanescent and dwindling ... Therefore I have resolved, content with my mediocrity (especially now that I have learned as much Greek as suffices me), to apply myself to meditation about death and the training of my soul. I should have done so before and have husbanded the precious years when they were at their best” (Erasmus, Huizinga, p. 59).

f. Erasmus died in 1536 in Basel, Switzerland, among his Protestant friends (Edward Hills, The King James Version Defended, p. 195). There is a famous painting of Erasmus sitting with these friends, the original of which is in the Erasmus Museum in Brussels. I saw it on a visit there in April 2003.

g. Erasmus’ work was rejected by the Catholic Church. His books were castigated and burned throughout Europe.

In England, Erasmus’ writings were publicly burned in May 1520.

In France, the Sorbonne burned French translations of Erasmus’ work that had been made by Louis de Berquin. On April 17, 1529, Berquin himself was burned at the stake.

In Spain, Reformers were called “Erasmistas.”

In 1535, Emperor Charles V made it a capital offense to use Erasmus’ Colloquies in the schools.

On July 1, 1523, the Belgium inquisitors burned two of Erasmus’ acquaintances in Brussels.

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) branded Erasmus a heretic and prohibited his works. In 1559, Pope Paul IV placed Erasmus on the first class of forbidden authors, which was composed of authors whose works were completely condemned.

It was a Catholic apologist who made the famous statement, “Erasmus planted, Luther watered, but the devil gave the increase” (Smith, Erasmus, p. 399). Thus, the Roman Catholic Church did not recognize Erasmus as a friend but as an enemy.

David Daniell rightly observes: “From Desiderius Erasmus came a printed Greek New Testament which, swiftly translated into most European vernaculars, was a chief cause of the Continent-wide flood that should properly be called the Reformation” (The Bible in English, p. 113).

h. Much that can be said about Erasmus can also be said about John Wycliffe and William Tyndale. These are the fathers of the English Bible, but neither of them formally left the Catholic Church. Both were ordained Catholic priests to their death. Wycliffe continued to exercise the office of a priest in Lutterworth until his death in 1384. Before Tyndale was martyred in 1536 outside of the castle walls in Vilvoorde, Belgium, the authorities excommunicated him and disbarred him from the priesthood. Of course, both men had long rejected most of Rome’s dogmas, and the same is true of Erasmus.

i. It is also important to note that there is no comparison between the situation with Erasmus and what we find in the field of modern textual criticism and the modern Bible versions today. Erasmus edited the Greek New Testament on his own. He was not doing that work in any official capacity in the Catholic Church nor did he have Rome’s backing but rather was criticized for it and his work was condemned in the strongest terms. On the other hand, the Roman Catholic Church has accepted modern textual criticism and the modern Bible versions with open arms.

BurnTheShips

Erasmus wrote boldly against many of Rome’s errors.

So? In the OT the prophets wrote against many of the priesthood's errors, injustices, and corruptions. Does that mean they rejected the instituton of the Levite priesthood and the Temple?

"Luther hoped Erasmus would join him in his protests. But when this did not happen, the first Protestant said some unkind things about the sharp-witted scholar. Erasmus was like a patriotic citizen in a Western democracy in our own times: well aware of the shortcomings and pitfalls of the system to which he belonged, but he did not see anything much better, least of all in the ideas of those who would demolish it. So he declared he would be a Roman Catholic to the end of his days, which did not mean he approved or applauded all that the Church of Rome was doing. "I will put up with this Church until I shall see it better," he is reported to have said."

http://www.metanexus.net/magazine/ArticleDetail/tabid/68/id/7485/Default.aspx

BTS

"Modern Bibles" Are Based on Wescott and Hort - Who Were They? Part I

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