Survival of Human Consciousness Beyond Death

by Rapunzel 53 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Rapunzel
    Rapunzel

    To anyone's knowledge, has there been any scientific research into the question of whether human consciousness can survive beyond death? I am referring to research studies conducted by neurologists, neuro-biologists, and neuro-physiologists. As far as I know, reputable scientific studies feature such factors as control groups. Also, a crucial aspect of the validity of any findings is whether or not these findings can be "replicated" or duplicated by other scientists in other parts of the world.

    I would imagine that the ethical implications of studying the survival of human consciousness beyond death would be staggering; it is hard to imagine how scientists could ethically do research in such an area. It would be surpriising for me learn of the existence of research in such a sensitive area. But I would appreciate it if someone could provide any information.

    Of course, experiments by reputable scientists and laboratories always provide the most credible evidence. However, as I have said, I have the feeling that such research is virtually impossible to obtain. So, I am wondering if anyone has read any convincing theories or conjectures written by experts in the field of neurology or neuro-physiology. Are their any experts in fields such as these who have staked the claim that human consciousness could survive death?

    As far as I know, the human "mind," or human consciousness, depends entirely on the human brain. If the brain is damged, human consciousness is either greatly impaired or else disappears entirely. Even if one uses the metaphor of "systems program" to describe the mind, this "software" cannot exist apart from the hardware which is the brain. Descartes spoke of the "ghost" [perhaps "spirit" might be a better word] in the "machine," in discussing the mind/brain duality. But no matter how you phase or frame the question, it seems that the "ghost" cannot survive, or live beyond, the demise of the "machine."

    Are there any theories by scientists that address the possibility of the survival of consciousness beyond the point of death? How could such a thing possibly be true? Have there been any scientific studies that shed any light on the issue? Science tells us that all organic life is based on carbon. Organic chemistry is the study of carbon and its compounds. Making the rash assumption that human consciousness does survive after death, what could possibly be its base?

    I ask these questions because I have had experiences that I wish I had not had. I have seen things that do not fit into my rationlist world-view. One alternative is that I was hallucinating. Another is that I saw an illusion - a "trick" of light and shaow. A third is that I witnessed some survival of human consciousness beyond death. The truth is that I really don't know what I saw.

    I suppose that this is a "ghost question," an issue that has been discussed before on this board. What I want to know is if there is any credible scientific evidence/theory/hypotheses in this regard.

  • Casper
    Casper

    I have no idea... but, you've certainly got my attention.

    ask these questions because I have had experiences that I wish I had not had. I have seen things that do not fit into my rationlist world-view. One alternative is that I was hallucinating. Another is that I saw an illusion - a "trick" of light and shaow. A third is that I witnessed some survival of human consciousness beyond death. The truth is that I really don't know what I saw.

    Hope you feel like sharing....

    Cas

  • Prov1320
    Prov1320
    As far as I know, the human "mind," or human consciousness, depends entirely on the human brain. If the brain is damged, human consciousness is either greatly impaired or else disappears entirely. Even if one uses the metaphor of "systems program" to describe the mind, this "software" cannot exist apart from the hardware which is the brain. Descartes spoke of the "ghost" [perhaps "spirit" might be a better word] in the "machine," in discussing the mind/brain duality. But no matter how you phase or frame the question, it seems that the "ghost" cannot survive, or live beyond, the demise of the "machine."

    I think you nailed it right here. The "machine" or "computer" is reponsible for interpreting and storing data. If the brain is damaged, even slightly, the invidual will appear to be or act like someone else. It would almost seem like we are one chemical compound away from being someone else.

    So I have always thought, even if there is a spirit, and the spirit leaves the body upon death, the spirit would have no means of retaining all the memories and life experiences that the person retained during their lifetime. If the spirit were to enter into another body, either physical or spiritual, it would be an entirely different person. This person would have no recollection of a past life or even any knowledge of existance. This person would be like a baby and hence, the transferrence would be without purpose!

    The only way to get around this, in my mind, is to "download" the memories and experiences to a central database. Upon some sort of ressurection, this data would be transferred back to the body, coupled with the soul/spirit/consciousness.

    A successful scientific experiment would have to involve close measurements of minute energy level fluctuations surrounding the immediate death of an individual. Hence, the ethical challenge.

    Just my thoughts... anyone else care to add their input?

    Prov

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow
    To anyone's knowledge, has there been any scientific research into the question of whether human consciousness can survive beyond death?

    Yes. A good book to start with is: Closer to the Light: Learning from the Near Death Experiences of Children

    This books is written by a physician and also includes information on death bed visions. He has compiled a lot of research and case studies.

    It's an easy read and I highly recommend it. Read about it on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Closer-Light-Learning-Experiences-Children/dp/0394579445/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216767484&sr=1-1

    The author has written several books on the subject. JW's want you to believe that doctors do not any of them believe near death experiences are real. This simply isn't true. The author does have a chapter on the familiar to JW's opposing view. Read it and make up your own mind. I don't think you will regret the read.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Here's a loosely related thread regarding the WT view of resurrection: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/161753/1.ashx

    JWs assume somehow that their 'consciousness' will carry over to a copy of themselves...yet at the same time, paradoxically, refute the idea of anything beyond information and physical form being transferred between one who dies and their future copy. Once they admit that the essence of 'self' extends beyond physical form and electrical impulses, they are refuting their own position.

    As for your question...sorry but my head hurts every time I try to understand consciousness.

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    The question asks several more...what is the nature of the "self"? There are brain-based activities that we associate with the individual (memory, cognition/attention, "thinking" processes such as logic and intuition), but then there are emotional baselines that are not limited to brain activity (rather they are at least influenced by body-based sensations that the brain may receive and coordinate into cognition/awareness).

    Another area for discussion would be, if some sort of existence extends beyond the body, does this apply to other life forms? Just complex life forms like other mammals? Simpler life forms like plants? What about single-cell life forms? By extension, does each of the cells in our body have a "ghost" or "spirit"?

    The sticky point is that there are no scientific approaches to test the existance of consciousness apart from the body. Theere are no objective tools to measure it, procedures to invoke it. There are attempts to sytematically describe and categorize subjective experiences that might be similar to death, but these cannot meet the requirements of scientific inquiry - they cannot be performed as strict double-blind tests, they cannot remove subjective experience, they cannot be strictly duplicated. Even among those surveyed that we might say have actually died, we do not find an entirely consistent experience.

    Still, there is interesting research that has been done. Cataloging of Near Death Experiences provides anecdotal posisbilities. Research into altered states of consciousness that seem to mimic death, such as some of the work by Stanislav Grof, may provide a point of reference. While their research is directed toward psychotherapeutic goals, MAPS has the potential to shed light on the subject since there seems to be a tendancy for work with psychoactive substances to produce results suggestive of consciousness apart from the body.

  • Rapunzel
    Rapunzel

    Thank you, everyone, for your replies and for the link.

    Casper, since you ask, I will try to explain it, although it's still painful - something that I want to "wash" from my mind, but cannnot.

    This happened in Taiwan. I was in a van, being dropped off outside of "E-dah" Hospital in Kaohsiung county, Taiwan. This hospital is a huge, newly-built hospital in Kaohsiung county, in the south of Taiwan. It is associated with "I-shou" University which is also in Kaohsiung county.

    This happened about a year ago. Due to complications resulting from gastric bypass surgery [to lose weight] I became very ill. I had to quit my teaching position. I was so sick that I could not take care of myself. I was put in a nursing home.

    One day, I had to see a doctor at "E-dah" hospital. Because I was so ill and living at the nursing home, the nursing home provided me with transportation to the hospital and back to the home.

    I remember being a passenger in the van, and approaching the main receiving area. Outside there is a huge patio area, about 25 or more square meters. There is a driveway that cars can use to quickly drop off patients and passengers. Standing outside, in the plain sunlight [I think that was not a question of the "play" of sunlight and shadow], I saw two people - a woman and a man. The woman looked quite normal and pleasant. In fact, I remember she was smiling. She was obviously accompanying the man, who was in pale blue patient's garb - pyjama pants and a pyjama top. I remember that at this hospital, males were given light blue clothes, and women were given pink. I myself had been a patient at this hospital and was given the same clothing

    In any case, what shocked me were not his clothes. It was the fact that he had no eyes. It appeared that he had lost both eyeballs. The "orbits" or sockets were empty. I remember thinking to myself: "Why isn't he wearing patches over his eyes? Why doesn't he cover them?" I mean isn't this usually the custom? Do people normally appear in public with empty eye sockets?

    It was horrific to see him. The other thing that was horrific about him was his mouth, his huge gaping mouth. Has anyone seen the 1893 oil painting by Edvard Munch, entitled "Scream"? His mouth was similar. People usually think of the human face as providing a background for the mouth. With him, it was the opposite. His mouth was a huge, gaping, black hole. Really hideous. I compare his mouth to the one in the Munch painting because that's just what it was. However, if you consult the Munch painting, you will see that, for all its meaning, it is stylized. In Munch''s painting, the man's head is quite like a light bulb.

    Not so with the "man" that I saw. His head was of normal proportion; and he was dressed just a patient at that hospital would be dressed. He was seated in a wheelchair. Of course, there is nothing odd about that fact. At "E-dah" hospital, patients are encouraged to get some sun; it's good for them. This man obviously had a companion - the smiling woman. What was bizarre and hideous about him was that he was lacking both eyes, and his mouth was a huge, gaping cavity.

    I might say to myself - in fact, I want to say to myself - that it was a trick of light and shadow. The problem is there was no shadow. It was in the middle of the day, and quite sunny, as it is most of the time in southern Taiwan. Moreover, the woman, his companion, was standing right beside him. I saw the smile on her face, I saw both of their faces. Hers was a middle-aged face, and not at all unattractive. In fact, it was rather a pretty face. But his was monstrous.

    The other odd thing is that neither one seemed to move. They were like statues. She with her smile, he in his wheelchair. They seemed to be frozen there.

    So, what was it that I saw? Doesn't Occam's law state that you should complicate things by positing superfluous hypotheses when a single one will do?

    Could this man simply have been suffering from some horrible disease that took away his eyes and left him unable to close his mouth? Is there such a disease? I just wonder why he did not cover his eyes with patches.

    Perhaps I was hallucinating. But it's odd to think that on that day in question, there were many people standing outside in that "receiving area" of the hospital. If I was hallucinating, why was it only in respect to that couple? In other words, in my perception, or field of vision, everything else was normal. It was a normal scene that I had seen quite a few times before - a good number of people standing and milling about in front of the main entrance way to "E-dah" hospital in Kaohsiung county, Taiwan.

    Perhaps you are wondering if I was using, or was under the influence of, hallucinogenic drugs. I was not.

    You know, I really wish that I had not seen what I saw on that day. The whole concept of "ghosts" is comical - until you experience it. Then it is not so amusing any more. Of course, to say that what I saw on that were a couple of "ghosts" would be jumping to a too hasty conclusion. As I have said, I don't know what I saw on that day. It was something that greatly upset and shocked me. I highly value reason. I simply cannot "get my mind around" the fact that some aspect of human consciousness survives death. As Dr. Spock would say, "It isn't logical."

    If consciousness does survive death, exactly on what is this consciousness based? There has to be a basis for everything. When people see "ghosts," exactly what is happening? Are they lying/hoaxing? Are they delusional? Or are they seeing something that cannot be explained? If it cannot be expalined, why not? We have penetrated what were one the "great mysteries" of the genetic code and the atom. Human science has made tremendous strides in every domain of science, at every level, from quantuum physics to cosmology. From plate tectonics to nanotechnology.

    And yet the best we can do is speak of "ghosts" and "spirits." It's like how people once spoke of the "ether," which never existed, as we all know.

    Make no mistake about it, I recognize all too clearly the irony of it all. All of the questions that I posed above can be asked about my experience. What did I see on that day about a year ago? Did it have any "objective" existence of its own? Did that couple have any existence outside of my mind? Or was what I saw simply an illusion/delusion within my own mind?

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Ghosts, I have not seen any ghosts, but I have experienced intelligent unseen beings. I have witnessed them along with several people at the same time. We have one in our apartment now. I don't see him. Sometimes Julian does. But he moves things. They disappear and reappear. And the other night, Julian was standing a few feet away from our sofa. I heard my car keys jingle. Julian's eyes got big and he exclaimed, "Nanna, your car keys just moved from the sofa onto your purse. And they were lying ON my purse. I saw Julian's hands at the time. He didn't throw anything. This kind of thing happens to us all the time.

    The man? It's possible he was a cancer victim. My brother's friend Bart had a wife named Armi. She had cancer in her sinus and ended up missing an eye, the cheekbone on that side of her face and the hole left exposed her sinuses and into her eye socket and mouth.She was from the Phillipines and she did not cover her face in public.

    But, that doesn't mean you didn't see a couple of ghosts.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Why not ask those who work at the hospital if there was such a man? I'm sure a face like that wouldn't be easily forgotten.

    maybe you can then be at least comforted by the strength of the woman's devotion!

  • Rapunzel
    Rapunzel

    Just to add a cultural note, since everything does indeed have a cultural context, ghosts - as they are commonly/"popularly'" portrayed on television in Taiwan - usually appear as having extremely pale and enemic skin which contrasts sharply with their long, jet-black hair. Their lips/mouths are blood red. In other words, they are often portrayed as "vampire-like."

    In addition to the "fear factor" that ghosts ellicit, there is also the element of nausea, disgust, and scorn. In the Chinese language, one of the worst things that you can call a person is a "ghost." One of the most abusive and hateful epithets that some Chinese have tradionallly directed at foreigners is the term "yang gwei-zi," which literally "ocean ghost," that is to say a "ghost which has travelled over the ocean to come here [China]. In truth, I only heard this word once in the twenty years I was in Taiwan. It was directed at me. It is considered very abusive to use the term "ghost" in reference to a living a person. It is a very vulgar epithet.

    Also, on a cultural note, there exists in Taiwan the idea of a "hungry" ghost. In fact, there are some ghosts which are so hungry that they eat people - cannibal ghosts. This is a concept that "Western" people don't usually have. I'm just mentioning this stuff because every idea has a cultural aspect.

    I appreciate everyone's comments. I have read about N.D.E's. When I saw whatever it was that I saw, I was ill, but I can't say that I was near death at that moment in time.

    I'm wondering if anyone has read about "ghosts" with gaping mouths, or any such thing. I would appreciate people's ideas/comments, even if it's to say that I was hallucinating or "crazy." To tell the truth, that idea has crossed my mind; it's a distinct possibility

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