Zev's UN/WTS Scandal Web Site - Part 2

by hawkaw 122 Replies latest jw friends

Dino

JosephAlward,
Since you have never been one of Jehovah's Witnesses maybe you cant relate to this. Ask any one of Jehovah's Witnesses why the organization has grown to 6,000,000 adherents, and they will tell you that it is because of God's Holy Spirit. One of the reasons they claim to be God's sole channel on earth is because of a total "reliance on Jehovah".When they associated with the UN in order to "make use of resources available to the enemy",what happened to their "reliance on Jehovah"? In a reading of the Sept. 8 '91 Awake! articles which were initially presented to the UN to show their support, there was not one mention of Jehovah.
And yet if a "pioneer" has to get off the list and get a full time job to afford new tires on his/her old clunker, they are looked at in a jaundiced way because they didnt "rely on Jehovah". Sorry to use JW terms, but you are on our turf.

Hypocritical? I think so.
Have you even followed the threads showing how they lied unblinkingly to the flock? Because of ZEALOUS work their lies have been exposed.
Sir, it may be your nature to be skeptical of everything, but to me your assertions are empty and presumptuous.
Until you can relate to my situation of having family members in a destructive cult, you and I have nothing further to talk about on this subject.
Dino
Lionel_P_Hartley

Joseph,
If what you suggest were th ecase, then how do explain the many articles since 1991 that cast the UN in a favorable light - at least to the uninitiated public who might read Awake! but not understand what the WTS really thinks about the UN. Clearly, the WTS was either taking its NGO status seriously, or was deliberately misleading the UN. Either way it i sdecitful and hypocritical.
Lionel
zev

first off....
thank you. to all.
i have been rather busy and distracted lately, i have my own issues to deal with concerning the wtbts at this time. thats all i can say for now.
those who know whats going on with me understand what i'm saying here.
to the others,
the wtbts partnership is and wasnt nessasarily wrong.
strong statement for me, and unexpected?
wait!
what was wrong, is not informing 6 million followers of it.
what was wrong was partnering with dpi, which meant following the rules of that partnership, including the UN CHARTER.
what was wrong, was not only did they understand the rules, they FOLLOWED through with it, and advertized for the un with awake articles.
that means only one damn thing. THEY KNEW WHAT WAS EXPECTED, INCLUDING THE SUPPORT OF THE UN CHARTED, AND FOLLOWED THROUGH WITH IT.
i'm not saying that the un charter is right, or wrong. thats for each to decide on his own. but with the facts presented, for all the existance of the un/league the wtbts has spoken against it and denounced it as standing in opposition to gods kingdom.
in 1991/1992 we find that the wtbts has climbed on board, adulterated itself with the beastie, and in 2001, we caught them sucking at the tits of the beastie.
wheres the apology? they have to know that this would disturb any good loyal dubby, who had access to the facts. all the facts, and evidence.
what if....
10% of loyal dubists were to know ALL the facts?
would a lame letter saying they needed a library card make it ok?
how many of those 10% would believe it, knowing all the facts?
not many in my estimation.
the point is, the facts are there.
the evidence is there.
they were caught.
is it enough to make a loyal dub question?
is it enough to make a loyal dub leave the cult?
only you can answer those questions for yourself.
i know my answer.
loyal jehovah's witnesses.....or ANY ACTIVE witness....
i put before you a challenge.
look at all the facts. examine the evidence, and the wtbts responses.
then post here how it makes you feel.
g'day!
-Zev
Learn about the Wtbts and the U.N.
** http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69 **
JosephAlward

What do you mean, "the Watchtower advertized for the UN with its articles"?
Which articles are these, and what is in them? If you're saying that the Watchtower said things favorable to the UN, then that would certainly seem to be contrary to their own teachings, but certainly not hypocritical; it would merely by stupid. Furthermore, such articles would certainly not have been concealed from the six millions. No problem there, except the writers of the articles would seem not even to understand WT theology.
Now, what I'm looking for is some indication that some member or members of the Watchtower governing body secretly embraced the mission of the United Nations, but continued to teach that it was the purple beast. That would be the smoking gun. If you cannot find it, you really have nothing more than evidence of stupidity at worse, carelessness at best, and that's certainly nothing new for the Watchtower, is it?
It seems to me that the Watchtower just wanted to avail itself of the vast resources of the UN, perhaps all the better to empower itself to fight against it; that type of thing is done all of the time. Jesus did it when he used the priests' temple to speak against them, for example. If the Watchtower governing body had NOT done what they did, they rightfully could be accused of not properly defending the society against its enemies.
Even IF the signers of the agreement DID know that its wording seemed to suggest that the Watchtower embraced the idealogies of the UN, what's wrong with lying for Jehovah, especially when the lies are to folks who are no better than birdseed? It should be all right for the governing body to go to such extremes if it's in the best interest of the six million, should it not?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
Dino

What do you want? A photograph of a governing body member hugging Kofi Annan, empirical boy?
You still havent addressed any of the points in either my posts or Path's, and cant stand up to Zev's challenge.
I hope you dont turn out to be just another pedant and I hope you can be reasonable.
You say you want a smoking gun?
It's obvious that you havent even read the November 22 '98 Awake! which is posted on the WatchTower Observer's website.
There is nothing wrong with a honest request for proof.
So go read that carefully. Still want "SOME indication that some member or members of the Watchtower governing body secretly embraced the mission of the United Nations, but continued to teach that it was the purple beast"?
Go look at that document in the now famous photograph of Eleanor Roosevelt. That is the charter of the UN which is the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights". The article is full of praise for the UN's efforts in the field of human rights.
Now click on this link and see for yourself how that article entitled, A"Long Job Finished" was submitted to the UN for it's approval before it was published as "meat in due season" from the "faithful and discreet servant". Oh, and by the way, that article had to be approved by a committee under the direct oversight of a governing body member.
< http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=16337&site=3
Still not satisfied? There is more coming fella, I can promise you that.
Think you are going to stop our bulldog tenacity?
Think again.
When you opened your post to Zev you said, "What do you mean, 'the Watchtower advertized for the UN with its articles'?"
One of the definitions of advertise is, "To generally make known".
What part of that do you not understand?
Go and read the September 8th 1991 Awake!
That definition is what old "Judge Rutherford" meant when he commanded the Bible Students to "Advertise, Advertise, Advertise, the King and His Kingdom".
Sounds like you have got some homework to do.
Dino
JosephAlward

I'm still not satisfied, not by a long shot, but perhaps it's because my threshold for outrage is much higher than that of the ex-Jehovah's Witnesses.
If the standard for hypocrisy by the Watchtower as it relates to the United Nations is that they be proven guilty of "associating" itself with them, then you've proven your case, and you need not debate further this issue with me.
However, I see nothing wrong with what the Watchtower did. I'll repeat what I wrote before:
Now, what I'm looking for is some indication that some member or members of the Watchtower governing body secretly embraced the mission of the United Nations, but continued to teach that it was the purple beast. That would be the smoking gun. If you cannot find it, you really have nothing more than evidence of stupidity at worse, carelessness at best, and that's certainly nothing new for the Watchtower, is it?
It seems to me that the Watchtower just wanted to avail itself of the vast resources of the UN, perhaps all the better to empower itself to fight against it; that type of thing is done all of the time. Jesus did it when he used the priests' temple to speak against them, for example. If the Watchtower governing body had NOT done what they did, they rightfully could be accused of not properly defending the society against its enemies.
Is it wrong for the governing body to associate itself in this way with the purple beast, while denying this right to individual members? I would say, No, because as custodians of the worldwide Watchtower organization, they have an obligation to do whatever it takes to advance its interests. If that means lying to the UN in order to gain access to resources, that should be perfectly fine; how could Jehovah object to such a tactic to defeat the purple beast? At the same time, however, it would seem foolhardy to allow individual JWs to decide on their own to engage in such practices; where would you draw the line?
If the Watchtower made a mistake, it was in not making public what it was doing.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
Dino

Well JA, I guess we are at an impasse. It is obvious that you will never the true mindset of the average JW.
Why do you think that the WT slid quietly out the back door of the UN? Why not just describe the scenario to the flock through the pages of the Watchtower and Awake using the same reasoning you just put forth? Because there would be a mass exodus for the exit. You see, the WT could NEVER say that their machinations were really just a "tactic to defeat the purple beast". They have ALWAYS said that Jehovah would do so. But really by their actions they have shown that they no more rely on Jehovah than Adolph Hitler did. Once again, not having the mindset of someone who has been associated with the organization, I dont really expect you to understand. The vast majority of posters have been adversely affected by the WT.
Having read your posts, I realize that you think that lying chicanery and duplicity is okay if the situation warrants it. No wonder you cannot see their hypocrisy if you think as "custodians of the worldwide organization they have an obligation to do whatever it takes to advance its interests." I dont view things that way. And that my friend is why we are at an impasse.
The earlier poster "refiners fire" had been associated with JWs before and therefore understood what we were trying to say. I know that you are an intelligent person and yet you refuse to reason. I also realize that it is important for you to have the "last word". Maybe to salvage an original post filled with platitudes? So go ahead. I will give you another chance. What is your motive in posting here? If you say altruism and a selfless regard for others, we all know that is a crock. If you dont take the time to study the harm done by this cult, you dont care about me. So go ahead, have the last word, but the vast majority here know that you dont have a clue about your audience.
Dino
JosephAlward

Dino writes,
You see, the WT could NEVER say that their machinations were really just a "tactic to defeat the purple beast". They have ALWAYS said that Jehovah would do so.
I'd like to see where the Watchtower said that; if that's true, then I would concede that point to you. Will you quote the words, and give the publication?
I don't know nearly as much about the organization as you do, but I thought that the door-knocking activity was intended to save souls. If the Watchtower did not leave Jehovah to the saving himself, but instead did it through its publishers, then I find it hard to understand why it would not be appropriate for the governing body to save souls by fighting against the purple beast. Please show me where the Watchtower teaches that it should not take direct action against the United Nations, or where it shows that the purple beast is solely the responsibility of Jehovah. Is there anything like that in writing? If not, I would wonder where your opinion comes from. As I said, I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just looking for the evidence that you are correct. Can you provide it?
Why do you think that the WT slid quietly out the back door of the UN? Why not just describe the scenario to the flock through the pages of the Watchtower and Awake using the same reasoning you just put forth? Because there would be a mass exodus for the exit.
I'm guessing that the WT gave up its affiliation because they were unaware of all of the conditions under which they were granted status as an NGO. Why haven't they yet described what happened? Again, I would guess that they WILL describe it if and when it becomes a problem in many of the kingdom halls throughout the world. I think the notion that there would be a "mass exodus" is just wishful thinking.
What I'm seeing as a totally objective observer is overzealousness on the part of sincere former believers who have been hurt by the Watchtower, and who would love to see it destroyed, or at least torn down and rebuilt. If that's the way I see it, I doubt that the faithful JW will be any less charitable.
Having read your posts, I realize that you think that lying chicanery and duplicity is okay if the situation warrants it. No wonder you cannot see their hypocrisy if you think as "custodians of the worldwide organization they have an obligation to do whatever it takes to advance its interests." I dont view things that way. And that my friend is why we are at an impasse.
Well, for goodness sakes, Dino, of course "lying chicanery and duplicity" are appropriate tools in the fight against the great Satan. If a satan exists, is it wrong to lie to it? Surely you don't think the answer to this question is No, Dino, do you?
If you dont take the time to study the harm done by this cult, you dont care about me.
I don't know why you think I haven't taken the time to study the harm done to you and others by the Watchtower. In fact, I've been diligently reading the threads in this forum, as well as listening to the tapes and watching the video, and reading the articles on Randy's web site since October 10, when I first found out about his site. I'm been virtually mesmerized by the horrifying stories of mind control, shunning, and destruction of families that have been caused by the organization. I'm on your side, Dino, 100%.
What is your motive in posting here?
I hate the idea of anyone basing their lives, or indeed, any of their actions, on untruths, as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian fundamentalists do, and I'm nearly as much against anyone basing their actions on incorrect subjective perceptions, that is, untruths. In this particular case, I'm posting because I think you and others may have made more of this UN problem then is really there.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
hawkaw

Joesph, you have a lot of reading to do. The annual accreditation form had to be filled out every year. That's every year!!!! And it had to be signed by an officer of the corporation (aka Llyod Barry of the Governing Body). They also had to submit an annual report and provide example of their work - read all the information. Did you read the 1994 and 1999-2000 directory that links L. Barry (Governing Body, Ciro Aulicino (Writing Department) and Robert Johnson (Service Department).
The WTS for years have called all other religions - false religion - and these religions ride the back of the evil beat (the great harlot) because they support the evil beast. The WTS have taken great pains at slaming all christian religions about this.
Now we find out the WTS has been doing the exact same thing.
I have taken great pains to describe what neutrality is all about and how a lot of Witnesses died because they were supporting their parent company leader's neutrality stance.
Now we find out that when they needed to visit a library (and in actuality they didn't need too) they scarificed their own teachings on neutrality and the lives of thousands in the past and those presently in jail.
Think about it man. They gave up their teachings all for a library card they didn't need.
But eh, ends justify the means eh! Like no big eh - like who cares except maybe those 1,000s of people in jail right now following these same leaders teaching on neutrality.
Did you notice the lying that went on in their letters on the criteria. Hello!!!
I'm not a JW either and I sure can see the hypocrisy and the lying. You might not think it is a big idea. Fine.
hawk
Dino

June 1 1988 Watchtower outlines the way they teach that Jehovah and NOT the WT organization defeats the purple beast.
It says:
"The existence of the United Nations and the effort that so many people have put into it, shows how deeply people of the earth realize the need for a change. That change will come in a different and more effective way. Which way?
PERMANENT RULERSHIP (subheading)
Remember that the Bible says there would be only seven successive "kings" or world powers. No major power is mentioned after that. The Bible even says that the temporary "eighth king...goes off into destruction."-Revelation 17:10,11.
But the Bible also says that there is a better hope. It promises that something else will bring the peace, justice, and united world that people so desperately seek. It says: "And the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin,... It will crush and put an end to all these(failing human)(parentheses theirs) kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite."-Daniel 2:44'"
Copy 1988 Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania All rights reserved
That was on page 28 paragraphs 3-5.
The society applies the eighth king to be the UN. That is the steps it has always said would take place in Jehovah crushing the UN.
Not my opinion. Ask any JW and they will tell you the same steps because they have been taught that in the WT for years and years.
Your drawing a comparison to Jehovah using the WT to accomplish the preaching is circular and has nothing to do with this.

As for your assertions that the WT gave up its affiliation because they were unaware of all the conditions under which they were granted status as a NGO, that is your opinion and it even sounds like the WT party line.And not too popular around here. But even more is coming, old boy.
As for people heading for the exits, that was hyperbole, and yes, wishful thinking.
Once again, through zealous work we have shown where the WT has lied to their flock AND the UN. Satan loves that, no need to lie to him.
And finally if you think we have created a "tempest in a teapot" out of this UN thing, once again that is your opinion and it doesnt affect me at all. Once again it sounds like the WT party line.
Dino

Zev's UN/WTS Scandal Web Site - Part 2

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