Zev's UN/WTS Scandal Web Site - Part 2

by hawkaw 122 Replies latest jw friends

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  one

  Zev.

  I just went to your site for a minute. Your site is ok for you and me, but for jw and general public i am not sure.

  A good approach would be to present the facts, mainly references, and let people make their opinion.
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  OUTLAW

  Hey Joseph,you`ve never been a jw have you?The reason people are pissed off is,people have died for not joining a government agency at the demands of the WBTS.Then WBTS volintarily joins a government sponsored agency and trys to pass it off like they`ve done nothing wrong.If theres nothing wrong with it why have so many people gone to jail for it?Why did so many people have to die?WBTSneeds to answer for their crimes to their own members.People have died or went to jail because of the demands from WBTS not to join or be involved with a goverment agency.Now they must pay the price...OUTLAW
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  JosephAlward

  Well, let me ask this, Outlaw: Would the Watchtower have disfellowshipped any JW who used the UN libraries? Has it already done so? If so, then I will concede that the Governing Body is guilty as charged, and should be condemned.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

  * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
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  OUTLAW

  HEY Joseph,had any individual jw joined the UN NGO they would have been made an example of and disfellowshipped.At that point,their own family and friends in the organization would turn on them.This is why people are so upset.The crime is not in using the library.The crime is in joining a government agency to use the library by WBTS own rules.The fact is,they didn`t need to join the NGO.They could have just asked for a library pass...OUTLAW
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  SixofNine

  First of all Joseph, understanding your uniquely logical approach, I can appreciate the way you are dealing with this matter. Having said that, my first reaction to your first few post on this topic was "what a jackass" .

  However, that was really just a kneejerk reaction to having to answer with logic, a problem borne out of anything but logic. This situation, this conversation, is the fruit of doublespeak and cult like activities.

  Unfortunately, I'm not the guy to answer you very well. I just don't have the skill, apptitude, or time to delve into it deeply enough. Perhaps I can explain a little.

  I would also like to have someone explain to me (again, let it be someone who is willing to respond without anger or insults, if possible) why Jehovah would not approve of a Witness lying to satan.

  Please understand, first of all, that while much is made of the "theocratic war strategy" comments and reference, the comments and references themselves where few and far between. They are confusing, and there was no clear "doctrine" on this type of matter for JW's to keep.

  The day in day out messege to JW's is, and always has been, to put the "truth" ahead of a lie, and to put "Christian nuetrality" ahead of just about anything. So, I understand your confusion and question when you say "...But, should they not be forgiven--indeed, applauded, for outwitting the purple beast and using its resources?"

  I understand, because from a certain standpoint, there is logic in that, it just happens to be opposite from the logic or psuedologic we as JW's were presented with, except for a few, rare, specific gems. Gems that most JW's didn't even let register on their conciousness.

  Here is the logic that registered with my mind and gut immediately on hearing about the UN issue. I thought about JW's in Malawi who had been killed, raped, tortured, because they were told that it would be disloyal to Jehovah to purchase a 25 cent (as I remember) political card from a one party government. Oh sure, it's a small thing, this little card, but we must not have the appearance of being involved with this worlds governments. Oh how I wish the GB would have applied your logic regarding christians lying to governments about their loyalties in that particular situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Somehow, "staying alive" or "keeping your wife/daughter from being brutally raped and sodomized", was never high on the list of "Kingdom Interest" for the boys in brooklyn. We may have Abraham to blame for that.

  Also, it may make perfect sense to you to have witnesses lying about this issue to advance the kingdom-- really just God using people for his kingdom, I believe you intimated, not really so different than God using people to preach. Again, all I can say is, neither the preaching work, nor the lying work, was presented to us that way. I know it doesn't really make sense, but we were all convinced somehow that God doesn't need us to accomplish his will, but that.....that......that....god I feel silly, lol....it really is unexplainable..... but that we had to do it to save ourselves and others. (yeah! that's it)(or is it it?). I think Jesus' comment about the "stones crying out" coloured our thinking pretty heavily.

  Sheesh, it's all pretty frickin' ridiculous, someone ought to start a website to point out how ridiculous it all is, lol.
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  SixofNine

  One other point, if you apply "using it's resources" to "using the library", then the argument is a bit silly, cuz no way would they have taken on this exposure for a resource that they in no way needed.

  No, "using the UN's resources" entailed something much more. Admittedly, no one knows exactly what. Whatever it was though, it certainly has the appearance of turning to the UN for help of some form or another. If Jehovah doesn't even really need our help to accomplish His will, we were taught that it is/was disgusting for churches to "get in bed" with politics for their misguided attempts at accomplishing God's will.
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  Satanus

  Bro Joe

  All the wt and un material that damns the wt has already been posted. Maybe a cursery reading doesn't get across the picture. I will try to answer your questions.

  The scandle erupted here on this board about a month ago when kent, i believe found concrete evidence the wt had signed on as a un ngo.

  Un favorable wt articles had appeared during the last decade. This was only noticed by very few jws. A question mark may have drifted through some of their minds, but really they are mass hypnotised in a supressive way. Natural reactions are suppressed/numbed. A reverent, nonquestioning thankfulness for new wt material has been entrained in their minds. Kind of like a dog awaiting his daily feeding. He happily wags his tail and gulps it down. If you added a few stones, he wouldn't notice, or he would strain to swallow them anyway. Savvy apostates did notice them and sqwacked, but then we sqwack about many wt falsities. As in a courtcase, even though there are indications of suspicion, nothing can be done until a piece of solid evidence is found. That was the un document.

  The wt reasoning at headquarters may well have been as you have described, even though they were breaking their own rules, they may have felt they were looking out for the greater wt good. I agree that the wt never really meant a wholehearted support of the un and its principles. They were only compromisimg to achieve their own ends. What enrages us is that the headquarters has broken their own rules, rules that we, the r&f and they would have originally lived by as well as. These wt excerpts have been posted.

  Wt articles do approve of lying to outdiders. wt Lying to the un would not upset us. The wt taking advantage of un services probably would not be too upsetting. What is upsetting is the wt act of signing the paper, saying they agree w un ideals and also egreeing to propagate those goals. This is the big bogey. Why? The wt material on this has been posted, but i will try to explain.

  The wt and un have similar sounding goals: peace on earth. However the wt adds much to this. One of their main doctrines is that there are two orgs: jehovahs, made up of jesus, good angels and jws. On the opposing side is the devil, demons and all the people. There is supposed to be a huge contest between god and the devil. Satan is supposed to have challenged that he and the people are able to do well without gods directions. If humans succeed in making this earth peaceful, stopping crime etc, it would prove the devil right and god wrong. Jws are to support gods side of this contest at all times. Business, religion and politics are claimed to be satans main tools on the earth. The un is the presumed to be the main satanic political weapon which satan is using to prove mankind is capable of reaching peace without god. The wt act of signing that paper was, by wt rules a show of support for the challenge against god. It was traitorous, whatever the reasons, 'jehovah' would have been very upset, amost as much as when adam ate the apple, at eve/satans enticement.

  If there are questions that remain in your mind, please make them clear, and i will again attempt to answer them.

  SS
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  SixofNine

  If I may expand on, and disagree a bit, with one of SS's comments.

  Wt articles do approve of lying to outdiders.

  
  I would agree with that statement, in that more than once have WT articles mentioned this. But, it hasn't been a lot of WT article either.

  I bring this up because I think it is important to note; I don't believe that rank and file JW's think of themselves as anything but the most honest people on earth. It kind of goes along with the absolute belief that your beliefs are indeed the "truth". Honesty, as a word, is preached to Witnesses ad nauseum. Now as a concept, no, it really isn't given that much airplay.

  wt Lying to the un would not upset us.

  I disagree with this statement. Now, if there was a clear and present danger from the UN towards the witness religion, then I think you would see the WT trot out arguments that would favour lying to the UN for a specific purpose, in a specific situation. Yeah, then I think the rank and file would accept and approve of this lying.

  I think that along with the hypocricy, people in general, witnesses included, would be (and are) bothered by the WT joining up with the UN, while the UN was obviously unaware of the WT's sentiments toward it.

  The wt taking advantage of un services probably would not be too upsetting.

  I agree. Mostly. The UN has been demonized sooo badly by the WT, that even witnesses might be somewhat bothered by merely "using", "taking advantage" of UN services. But just going to the library? No, that wouldn't have bothered most witnesses.

  What is upsetting is the wt act of signing the paper, saying they agree w un ideals and also egreeing to propagate those goals. This is the big bogey.

  Absolutely. Joseph, it just stands in such STARK contrast to the experiences of all JW's, either personally, or in situations we'd read about, like Malawi, etc. We all had to mentally prepare ourselves to die rather than comprimise in even a small way. I think for the most part, we did. That stays with a person.
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  JosephAlward

  First of all, let me thank Saint Satan and Six for their efforts; I now have a better understanding not only of the UN issue, but of Watchtower idealogy.

  What is upsetting is the wt act of signing the paper, saying they agree w un ideals and also egreeing to propagate those goals. This is the big bogey.

  I still have a few questions.

  Does there exist a copy on the web of a paper signed by the governing body on which it is stated that the signers of the document agree with the ideals of the United Nations? Zev's site is temporarily down, so I can't look for this document, if it's there.

  If the answer to this question is Yes, then I think all here agree that governing body was lying. Now the question becomes, if a JW had similarly lied to a government agency, would he or she have been disfellowshipped? If the answer to this question is Yes, then you all have the right to be outraged, in my opinion. On the other hand, if you think the answer is No, then I don't see any reason for anger.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

  * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
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  Satanus

  Bro Joe

  'Does there exist a copy on the web of a paper signed by the governing body on which it is stated that the signers of the document agree with the ideals of the United Nations?' Yes

  'governing body was lying' Yes

  'JW had similarly lied to a government agency, would he or she have been disfellowshipped' Probably not. Its not important.

  You miss the point, a point the wt itself has made a big deal about. For the wt to lie to the un is a secondary beef. The main point is that they agreed in writing to the un ideals and to spread the same. By their own standards making a declaration of support for the purple dinasour;), whether they meant it or not is an act of idolatry to the un directly and indirectly to satan. Those are wt ideas. So often they have trotted out daniels' 3 hebrew friends as shining examples who wouldn't bow to nebuchadnezers image. If those 3 jews had done it, but without really meaning it would not have mattered. The act would have been the sin. By wt standards, they still would have worshipped it directly and satan indirectly. It's a similar act the wt did (by their own standads) when they signed the un ngo form.

  Thanks SS