When Debating With Witnesses- Is Arguing Doctrine Beneficial ? Steve Hassan (page 2)

StoneWall

I would have to say that I was one who benefited from the thought provoking questions more than just comparing people who seemed happy on the outside.
If someone is leading a somewhat happy life on the outside of the Org, its very easy for a witness to dismiss it with the following scriptures...

Psalm 37:16 "Better is the little of the righteous one Than the abundance of the many wicked ones"

Job 21:7-9 "Why is it that the wicked themselves keep living, Have grown old, also have become superior in wealth?

8 Their offspring are firmly established with them in their sight, And their descendants before their eyes.

9 Their houses are peace itself, free from dread, And the rod of God is not upon them."

Acts 17:2,3 "So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and [saying]: “This is the Christ, this Jesus whom I am publishing to YOU.”

stillajwexelder

When Debating With Witnesses- Is Arguing Doctrine Beneficial ? No - they get very defensive. This is not the best way

penny2

Have you found that arguing with the witnesses is fruitless as well ?

Definitely! Since I've stopped arguing doctrine, life has become much more peaceful as well. I will still contribute to a conversation. For example, in a discussion about the dragnet and the leaven from a recent WT - I incorporated some points from the comments on here. But I don't argue.

Balsam

Great advice from Steve Hassan, I've used it and it brought my two sons out of the JW's. They need to see that they live and be happy out side the organization their stuck in. Telling them of all the new things and experience that are positive will go a long ways and the doctrine is best left alone. I never spoke about the doctrine unless my sons brought it up themselves and expressed doubt in it.

Balsam

caliber

it is usually non-productive, creates barriers, and closes down communication. "

Just be authentic and real with the witnesses and by example show we don't live in fantasy land

I think this is good for not just talking to witnesses but anyone in life always using positive and inspiring conversation !

If we wish to get a point across to witnesses be like Satan (this sounds strange ) but use questions that

promote self -analyzing ! Don't give a answer they don't like..direct their thoughts down the path you wish

them to take. (I know some don't even believe in Satan ) but look how effective the Bible account was for

Satan.. he understood that creating doubt works best.. people may be lead to believe they arrived there by

themselves !.. Convincing argument may mean giving them obvious conclusions in their own mind.

Caliber

shamus100

You can lead a horse to water.... you know the rest.

It's like forcing a drug-addict into recovery when they're not ready for it. It generally won't work.

Just leave them be. By berating them you are probably re-enforcing they're beliefs. Live your life happily and free!

Dogpatch

In a professional intervention, the discussion of "what to believe" and doctrine should be reserved for the last, when the cult mindset is broken. To attempt to do so as your initial approach is very foolish, if you want them out. It just triggers them into their cult mindset and you may lose the battle. Catholics, evangelicals, Jews and those of other faiths and EVEN ATHEISTS with an agenda need to back off from this, even though it seems like almost a gut reaction. Those who want to "convert" their kids over to whatever should either be left out of the main intervention process, as far as "belief" input, unless it is appropriate at the end.

I will put a video up on the "Christian" role in Exit-counseling soon, from our class on learning intervention with Steve Hassan and myself from the 90s.

It is vital you gain the trust and respect of the one you are intervening with. Lying, hidden or not-so-hidden agendas, personal grudges (like from a mate that "wants them out badly for religious reasons!) and cheesy techniques will render most or all of what you do unsuccessful, and not a few believers who have tried their own version of exit-counseling, but who imposed their agenda, have pretty much sealed the fate of the cult member by their own actions! NOBODY wants to be SCAMMED. EVEN IF the information you have is vital and correct! All about methodology.

Over the years, all but one or two cult members who went through an intervention with me soon became Christians. What was the tipping point? Usually it is when the intervention is in its later stages, and the person is the most open to what you have to say about, "What now?" Usually at that point they ASK about historical Christianity VS JWS, and something takes over inside of them that is the sign that they are SEEKING the Bible's answers. At that point, I can point them in the right direction.

Of course, nothing is set in stone, and be prepared for the person to express feelings, beliefs, etc. they have not spoken ever in their life. Not in terms of CONFESSION, but in terms of their own desire for what direction they want to go in the future. As far as I'm concerned, I get them to the point in their errant journey where the road went astray, and wrong decisions were made, and I bring them back to that road and look at it carefully. Then I tell them to think about a new path to create from that crossroads, one that moves ahead, is not a victim to guilt and fear, and one that will ensure their future happiness.

Randy

OUTLAW

Flipper..Even if you kick their ass in an argument,JW`s will have one last reply.."Where else would we go?".......Jehovah`s Witness`s are like Prisoners,who have lived in Jail for too long..Jehovah`s Witness`s are Institutionalized.............................. Laughing Mutley ...OUTLAW

wha happened?

It's the "By example" method that helped us to convince my sister-in-law to return to college. My wife and I decided to pursue education and my sister-in-law noticed that we didn't become materialistic devil worshipers. This led her to ignore the pressure to not continue her education.

I think she's prime for learning the truth about the truth.

flipper

STONEWALL- So you were helped by thought provoking questions ? Well I guess different strokes for different folks . Some people need to be convinced by points made , others don't.

STILLAJWEXELDER - Very true . Arguing is not the best way.

PENNY 2- It is more peaceful when we don't argue with witnesses. Discussion is good like you said, but not arguing.

BALSAM- I agree . I'm glad you got your 2 sons out ! I agree that by us being happy on the outside of the witnesses and sharing new upbeat experiences with them helps a lot for them to see they could be happy too on the outside !

CALIBER- I agree - we should be this way anyway in our life - positive with whomever we talk with ! Allow the witnesses on their own to come to conclusions without us telling them. It will be obvious in their own minds. Good points you make.

SHAMUS 100- You are right- the witnesses are like drug addicts in that they'll only stop when they want to. Best not to berate them into stopping. They'll leave when they are ready.

DOGPATCH- I'm glad you have had the opportunity to work with Steve Hassan and benefit from his experience. I'm sure he taught you a lot of techniques to use with people. Especially you in helping people exit cults, but who still want to turn to a Biblical hope - can assist them to see real Christianity as opposed to mind control. And good point that you share Christianity with them without guilt and fear !

OUTLAW- I agree JW's have been prisoners way too long - and yes, they do like to get the last word in as well.

WHA HAPPENED- I agree - example is the best way to help relatives exit the witness cult. I'm glad your sister in law went back to school by seeing you and your wife going back to college ! I wish you the best of success with your sister in law, it does sound like she might be ready to listen and leave the witness cult ! Good luck ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper

When Debating With Witnesses- Is Arguing Doctrine Beneficial ? Steve Hassan

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