I ordered the book but it still hasn't arrived . My patience is wearing thin, but don't worry, I won't give in . Question: What do you think would happen if I said to my sister, "Sis, would it be alright if I asked you questions & then you repeat them back to me so I know you understand what I'm saying? And then maybe we could discuss it a week later?".... is that confrontational? does the book speak about that? In my experience, the main reasons I get into fights/arguments with loved ones, it's usually because I feel like I've not been heard. And I don't believe I'm alone with that. Its drives me NUTS to remember when I was a jw and somebody would ask me a question. Firstly, I usually prayed to Jahooba beforehand for guidence so that I 'may answer all their questions'. And then, as soon as somebody (like a return visit) would ask a question, my mind was already racing, not really hearing what they were saying, and I was trying to grab any plausible answer, even if it sounded like crap to everybody but me. And then the subject was closed (in my mind, anyway).
When Debating With Witnesses- Is Arguing Doctrine Beneficial ? Steve Hassan
by flipper 47 Replies latest jw friends
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Heaven
I really want to read this book by Steven Hassan. While I can see a certain futility in debating doctrine, I do believe a combination of both techniques of showing doctrinal error as well as demonstrating a good and proper life outside of the WTS are beneficial. Most JWs do not look outside for confirmation of their doctrines. Being told they have been proven to be in error plants seeds. It has at least entered the mind.
I never start a debate. But inevitably, a JW can't leave things lie. So I show the error(s) in what they are saying, point to the Bible if applicable, and also live the example. I am up front and honest. You need to establish with them that you aren't going to be convinced. If you don't, they'll just keep on at you.
If my father wants to bring up doctrine then he's opened the door. I know I create conflict within him (as well as those in his congregation) as he, as well as they, see the good I do, especially for him. But when he starts up with something like 'Armageddon is coming soon' I don't let him get away with it. This is their main scare tactic to try and recruit new members. I'm not mean or angry with him, I just state the facts. At least I get him thinking. The 'Everything is Bad' mantra as their reasoning is so flawed. I like to point out that the 2 World Wars and the Depression were examples of how things were really bad in the past, which are ones he can relate to, but here we are many years later and no Armageddon.
I really don't have the time to debate all WTS doctrines with my father. If he initiates a discussion, I stand by my beliefs. He's never been able to answer any questions of mine during these conversations.
I agree with Dawg about setting proper boundaries and not allowing them to get away with unprincipled behaviour. It is up to us to let them know this is unacceptable.
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flipper
HOMESCHOOL- I hope you get your book soon ! You'll really enjoy it. You asked , " What do you think would happen if I said to my sister " Sis, would it be alright if I asked you questions and then you repeat them back to me so I know you understand what I'm saying ? And then maybe we could discuss it a week later ? "
It depends WHAT WORDS you use in your questions to your JW sister. You will find in reading Hassan's book that there are trigger words or catch phrases witnesses use that automatically kick in their cult brain into defense mode to protect themselves and their doctrines ! So like you stated if you use " trigger " words like questioning " the faithful slave " or " 1914 " or talk about " Armageddon " - these words get the witness subconscious mind going in cult mode so they are more likely to debate and argue. At first - try reasoning with your sister from an " authentic " position as opposed to a " cult " position. In other words build up a rapport with her as a friend, or fleshly sister and talk about non-witness things you have in common , interests, movies, etc. then in time you will gain her trust and can approach the witness topics. You can certainly talk doctrine- just avoid kicking in the witnesses triggers. That is what Steve Hassan recommends anyway. You'll see when you read the book. Good luck.
HEAVEN- If you have a good authentic relationship going with your dad- by all means you would be able to speak about some doctrinal points in a riendly, nice manner as you say. But the trick is observing during the conversation when it might go from the " friendly comversation " to " the aggressive pissing against the wind " debate. Only each person can determine that. I hope it works well with your dad
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homeschool
I totally hear what you're saying....for the past six years, we've had a totally authentic, REAL relationship. And we never talked about religion (from MY standpoint, anyway) because 6 years ago, I assured her that I thought the jw's were full of CRAP & that I would never ever ever EVER go back to the KH or the Jw's. (I had no proof or evidence at that point, just feelings). But now I'm a different person...totally calm & laid back (except for some of my rants on jwn, hehe). It's time. I already know this is going to be one of my biggest challenges ever, and I have to fight my impatience.
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kitten whiskers
I agree with that. It wasn't someone showing me doctorinal falsehoods. It wasn't hearing about corrupt things in Watchtowerland. I noticed those on my own. If someone would have tried (other than my hubby sharing his doubts, and even then I went looney) to disprove them, I would have turned a deaf ear. I would have defended the faith.
It was the examples of my grandparents. Their friends and neighbors. The good church going people who loved God and couldn't be actually serving Satan that spoke volumes. I saw these examples. I met them in service. I treasured their words in my heart. Their kind words. Their expressions of faith, their actions of faith and kindness.
The expressions of faith that I witnessed or heard, weren't directed at me to get me to change my mind or religion. They were simple little statements. For example, the woman who said at the door in service, "I think if you crush someone's spirit, you are guilty of murder." Wow! What a thought! She evidently lived a very kind and considerate life. She was very kind to me. She just stated a simple belief. It has stuck with me for 13 years. I wish I could remember where she lived.
The sight of my grandfather spending the day in the heat on a lawn mower getting sunburned and a severe headache, in order to the lawns of the widows in the neighborhood. He never got paid. He never wanted to. He helped. He spent his time and resources "taking care of widows". These were large lawns. It took hours to get this job done.
My dear little grandma baking for everyone in the neighborhood. Taking care of the bachelor across the road and his boys with lots of homemade goodies.
The bachelor taking care of grandma. Plowing the snow from her driveway. Calling to make sure she is alright. Coming over to take care of little things she needs.
These people exhibit Christian kindness and love in their lives. Daily. They actually help people. They don't cop out of doing work by saying "we help people most by bringing them the good news". They live the "good news". I personally think Steve is right on the money. Display your works and others will see. They can be won "without a word", so to speak.
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flipper
HOMESCHOOL- I'm glad you have developed a close personal authentic relationship with your sister ! That's cool. It's half the battle to gain their trust in talking witness stuff to them. That's also good you are calm and totally laid back- you will need that when talking to witness relatives as it can drive you nuts. I know it does me.
KITTEN WHISKERS- Very good points you make ! Good description of how we can see the goodness in other people and compare it to what we don't see in the witneses. I'm happy for you that you were able to see this. Good for you. It helped you think clearly on things
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BluesBrother
If you want your loved one to believe the world is not such an evil place , and that there are plenty of constructive, worthwhile, and exciting things to do, then do some of those things yourself ! Tell your loved one about your experiences.
Hmmm...I have to say that if the dub is not swayed by logical argument, I do not think that they would be swayed by the success of a leaver in "Satan's world"
I can hear them saying " Let him enjoy it now, until Armageddon !" "Satan takes care of his own " "The old world is designed to be tempting, the way of a true Christian will always be harder, it just proves that we have the truth"
I know, I have been there , done it, said it.
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flipper
BLUES BROTHER- I don't think witnesses can be convinced much of anything myself until they experience injustices from someone inside the witness cult. Then it might just get them thinking a bit