jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • shopaholic
    shopaholic

    In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter? Really? Does it really matter if Jesus is God or if Jesus is the son of God?

    If you worship God the best way you know how, in the end he should be able to read your heart and know that your overall intentions were good. I doubt God will kill or dismiss anyone because they claim that God and Jesus are the same person or because they believed God and Jesus to be separate entities. God is intelligent and reasonable enough to know that your worship was for intended for him.

    Now, if only someone could get a hold of God and\or Jesus and let them know that mankind could use about 15 minutes of their time...

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    reniaa,

    All I can do is tell you that I am one who reads and studies the Bible daily (with rare exception), and has done so for decades, I used to be a JW, but found their doctrines and theology unsupported by Scripture.

    The trinty vs non-trinity interpretations of the God's nature as revealed in the Holy Scriptures have been debated since at least the third century, at the council of Nicaea.

    The issue is further complicated by numerous definitions and beliefs of the very definition of "the" trinity.

    After decades of debate and research, I have come to be somewhere between Arianism (Unitarian) and Trinitarian beliefs.

    I believe that Scripture clearly teaches that God, the Father, YHWH, exists outside of time as we define it, and has no begining or end.

    I believe that Jesus Christ is His only begotten son, His only direct creation, and that He, Jesus Christ, went on to create everything else.

    I believe that the Holy Spirit is either a person, or God's active force, I find it impossible, to date, to decide on one or the other, based on the Scriptures describing the Holy Sprit.

    I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are ONE in the nature of their unity, purpose, and Spirit.

    In other words, I understand how (at least some percentage of) Trinitarians come to their understanding, and I understand why, based on Holy Scripture, I believe as I do.

    This website would make an interesting read for you:

    http://prosites-hobarker.homestead.com/trinity.html

    Ultimately, the Trinity doctrine is not explicitly found in the Bible. Further, I think that God, in His Love, Justice, Wisdom, and Power would have answered this question explicitly if it were necessary for salvation, which it clearly isn't. Salvation comes by God's free gift, grace through the redemptive power of Christ's sacrifice, so that all who put faith in Him might recieve life, rather than death, which is what we deserve.

    I normally would cite Scriptures to make my point, in this case, the whole Bible must be read over and over, with God's Holy Spirit upon you, to reveal these truths. My advice is to get out of the Jehovah's Witnesses ASAP, pray to God for His Holy Spirit, put your faith in Him and His Son's saving Grace, read His word the Bible, meditate on it daily. Live a life that befits repentance, full of good works and kindness. And always remember:

    If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. (Matthew 12:7)

    You must make it your habit to speak and act like people who are going to be judged by the law of liberty. For the one who has shown no mercy will be judged without mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:12-13)

    "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. (Matthew 7:2)

    Do not criticize each other, brothers. Whoever makes it his habit to criticize his brother or to judge his brother is judging the law and condemning the law. But if you condemn the law, you are not a doer of the law but its judge. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge—the one who can save and destroy. So who are you to judge your neighbor? (James 4:11-12)

    But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

    Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (Hebrews 4:16)

    Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' (Matthew 18:33)

    "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. (Matthew 23:23)

    His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation. (Luke 1:50)

    "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." (Luke 10:36-37)

    For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:32)

    BA- Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. - 1 Corinthians 13:12-13

    PS- May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar. - Romans 3:4

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi satanas if you look at one of the scriptures I quoted it Jesus himself speaks of things called 'Gods'

    34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods' [e] ? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.

    hi brother Apostate

    Thank you for your well thought out reply but this is not a scriptural discussion on trinity like your link says 'It's a mystery' even to those that follow it but that I think using the scriptures we can see jesus actively stopped people viewing him as God and only allowed himself to be Gods son and not a play on words to mean 'Son the god' another expression that is none biblical see the first scripture I used.....

    18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

    Aren't we basically deciding what we ourselves think jesus is! when jesus himself did not seek to be God and as he did in this scripture pointed it out to others?

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear reneaa...

    "I spend about an hour pouring over the bible to find scriptures personal to my own reasons for not believing jesus is god "...

    what ARE your own reasons for not believing Jesus is God? or are you just in a certain mindset?...God calls it stiff-necked...

    1 timothy 6:13-16...philippians 2:5-11

    love michelle

    p.s. my own personal reason for believing Jesus is God is this: until I did believe this, I didn't have fellowship with the Holy Spirit of God, who's purpose is to glorify Jesus as the Christ.

  • shamus100
    shamus100

    Why bother trying to make sense out of a story book?

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi myelaine/michelle

    Your points and scriptures are good ones and again refering to jesus and God as same nature (this is stuff for a more trinitarian discussion) but its not on what I was trying to say with regards to jesus himself!

    That Jesus himself didn't want to be seen as God and certainly never as equal to God, it is something people have hung on him against his wishes.

    reniaa

  • StAnn
    StAnn
    That Jesus himself didn't want to be seen as God and certainly never as equal to God, it is something people have hung on him against his wishes.

    Reniaa -

    Q- Why did the Jews want Jesus killed?

    A- Blasphemy

    Q- What did he do that the Jews thought was blasphemous?

    A- Jesus claimed to be God

    'Hovie ideas are not welcome here. We heard all of your silly arguments when we were Dubs. We've rejected them.

    Go away.

    StAnn

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d
    5 For example, to which
    one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And

    Sounds like a birthday.

    I don't think Jesus is "god". But I think he's the closest thing we've got.

    That OT monster certainly can't be ...oh, wait, yes he is. Satan is the god of this world.

    8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."

    Satan could not offer it if it wasn't his to give. Therefore, Satan must be the god of this world. Actions speak louder than words. All the attributes of satan seem to fit Jehovah.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    Reniaa,

    What I find instructive is to let each of the gospels and epistles, give their individual and independent portaits of Jesus and see how this may have changed over time.

    In Mark we have a Jesus that is not proclaiming himself to be God, and no pre-story of a miraculous divine birth. It fits very well with an adoptionist view. Not too surprising that the other 2 gospels of Matthew and Luke which are heavily based on Mark has a more human portrayal of Jesus. Their whole aim was to historicize this figure and to combat other beliefs, stress the humanity of this figure.

    Material that most likely was really from Paul, can go both ways. His earliest material can support an angelification of Jesus but we also see ideas of Jesus being pretty much divine in nature.

    John, the latest of the material I've mentioned, is definitely portaying Jesus as more than human. If you read it without the other gospels or Paul's ideas in mind, then Jesus comes off as a kind of incarnate emanation from God. When the Roman troops and the mob come to arrest Jesus and when asking if it was he, he says"I Am", which causes all of them to fall to the ground. Doing obeisance to him isn't it? Who would be able to garner that kind of response? Looks like Johnny was saying we had the divinity in flesh there. I'm not the gospel is Trinitarian. Rather proto-gnostic, so that its talking about believers also being in union with Jesus and God can be made to fit well with other later epistles that talk of christians gaining divine nature for themselves.

  • wozadummy
    wozadummy

    Well St Ann I reckon your explanation was pathetic diversion . Reniaa quoted from the bible and you immediately point to WT teaching - no relevance! And then you add to your pathetic argument other rubbish from another religion - you never addressed what scriptures she quoted .That just put me way off Catholicism ,well done the lord will reward you ,won't he?

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