jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion. (page 5)

truthseeker

Interesting discussion.

I think the Holy Spirit is simply an extension of God himself.

We use a telephone to talk to people across continents, using that analogy, God speaks to us through angels or as in the case of Moses, via the burning bush.

It doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is a person or has its own intellect or does its own thing, though the Bible can make it seem that way at times.

John 14:26 says "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything that I have told you."

KWR I'm not a JW, but I don't believe that Jesus was/is God. As the scripture show Jesus did not say he was God in the flesh. Hi KWR, In response to your comment (shown above) please read the following verse: John 1:14 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. God bless, cjones

civicsi00

If Jesus was not God (in the Trinitarian sense), then why did he allow people to worship him? It's clear that all of the good angels did not accept worship from any human, and directed them all to worship God alone. But Jesus did not deny people from worshipping him.

By the way, don't use the NWT. The WT has replaced the word "worship" with "do obeisance".

snowbird

If Jesus was not God (in the Trinitarian sense), then why did he allow people to worship him?

Why "in the Trinitarian sense"?

I believe Jesus is God, the Creator, and as such, He should be worshipped.

I reject the Trinity doctrine because of its bloody, divisive history.

Sylvia

lovelylil

I am coming into this discussion late but here is my two cents;

When Christ said he was God's Son, the Jews tried to stone him for blashemy. Why? Because they said he was making himself equal to God. The Jews understood that in order to be God's son, Jesus would have to be the same nature as God the father, in other words a God cannot have a Son, who is less than a God can he?

John 5:18
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God

Jesus clarrified this point even more when he stated "I and the father are one", this "one" means the same nature or substance. Since he is the same nature of God, he is equal to God. He is not God the father, but God the Son. He is equal in nature to God, but not position. What does this mean?

An example would be this; A human father and Son are equal in nature and substance, yet the father is higher in position to the son. But Christ was still equal to God and was in fact "GOD", as per John 1:1. (see more below)

Jesus willingly gave up his equality with God and humbly lowered himself by taking a lower form of nature on earth to save us;

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature [ a ] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature [ b ] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Prior to his coming to earth, Christ had a position of glory with the father. Something none of the angels ever had. He was the unique and only begotten son of God. The only one in the same nature of God. The only one that could be called God the son. Upon ascending back to heaven, he would be given his divinity back.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorifyme in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began

John 1:1 in light of other bible texts in the NT makes sense. Christ was with God "in the beginning", which means before time began. This is proof that Jesus was not a created being who came later. He was always "with" the father in heaven. They were never apart. They are in fact "one".

Jesus being God makes sense in that he is in nature, substance, power and Glory God the Son. In other words totally equal to God the father. The son and the father both make up what we call GOD.

The bible in fact speaks of God as having a "triune" nature. Being made up of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't think we can ever fully comprehend what this means. The trinity doctrine has been debated for centuries. I myself am not a full trinitarian because I do not think of the Holy Spirit as being a person, in the same sense Christ was. But I am still learning the more I read the NT. I do fully accept the divinity of Christ and his equality with the father.

And I accept the fact that the father has now placed the church (all true believers in Christ) under his son's feet and we can pray to Jesus for the Holy Spirit to help us understand the bible more. Remember Christ is the head of the church. This is Jehovah's Arrangement.

Hope these scriptures help. If anyone wants to know more about Christ, read the New Testament in a Bible such as the NASB or the NIV. DO NOT read it in the NWT, the WT has changed over 200 verses in that bible to hide the divinity of Christ and to support their own views.

Peace to all, Lilly

sir82

Here's my take on the whole issue:

People have been arguing about this point for well over 1900 years. No definitive conclusion has been reached. Each side presents "ironclad" proofs for it's particular viewpoint, and only occasionally does someone who fully accepts one position or the other "switch sides".

1900 years, and the controversary is just as fresh, just as undecided, just as emotionally charged as it was from day one. Each side has millions of adherents who are utterly convinced they are 100% right, and are only too happy to talk to you (for hours on end, if needed!) to try to get you to see their point.

If "believing that Jesus [is / is not] God" were all that important, if making sure you get it right is the fulcrum of salvation / damnation, wouldn't God have made the point a bit clearer? I mean, he sure was unequivocal about his position on, say, worshipping idols.

Why make "worshipping idols" so crystal clear and undoubtedly wrong, but give muddled, confusing (some would say contradictory) explanations on his nature?

I have to conclude that if it is so unclear, it must not be all that important for humans to "get it right".

Slappy

Lilly,

That's quite possibly one of the best explanations I've heard yet. Thanks for sharing it.

Reniaa,

You ask a question in order to try to make a point that Jesus isn't God. Then when people bring up the Trinity you reject that as a different subject and not relevant. This shows how little you truly understand the Person of God. Your question is not only directly related to the Trinity, it is the Trinity itself. Just because you left the Holy Spirit out of it doesn't make it any less.

I, too, used to hold that the idea of the Trinity was not important and necessary for salvation. However, as I became more familiar with the Bible, my view began to change. While the term 'Trinity' is no doubt a man-made term, the idea it conveys is not man-made. If Jesus was not God, then all He did and all He said was a lie. I'm not sure if you can put your faith in Christ and then not hold that He is God. If He isn't God, then we are just putting our faith in another 'man', and we all know where faith in 'man' leads.

Many 'organized religions' reject this idea of a 'Trinity' because by doing so it enables them to undercut the Deity of Jesus, thereby putting Him on a back-burner as it were. This then opens up the possibility to interpret things the way they want and massage and bastardize the Person of God to suit their own agenda. This is clearly evident in the Mormon and JW religions.

Anyway, since it's clear that you will ignore anything we say that contradicts your 'WT inspired beliefs', I will refrain from saying more. All I can ask is that you make an honest attempt at understanding the nuance of those portions you quoted and misinterpreted, preferably without the NWT. For when it all comes down to it, anything we say will have no effect on you; you are the only person who can affect to change your 'beliefs'.

Christian conversion is not a result of human persuasion, but of the 'soil' and the manifestation of God's grace.

If you truly ask God for help in discerning the truth contained within His Word, He will guide you; of that I have no doubt!

slappy

isaacaustin

Reniaa

Since you requested a Biblical discussion I am interested in your responses to the points I brought out.

lovelylil

Renaia,

I am also awaiting your reply.

Isaacaustin,

Eexcellent points to show how the WT twists the scriptures to try to make Jesus say something he did not. I am awaiting Renaia's response to you as well.

Peace, lilly

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

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