USA AUTO MAKERS SCAPEGOAT?

by Sunnygal41 66 Replies latest social current

• 

  hillbilly

  Mary, I live 7 miles from GM Lordstown and know MANY unionized auto workers, and not one of them makes $70 an hour plus benefits.

  That figure gets tossed around all the time. When you break down production costs based on bodies on the floor it equals $70 bucks an hour.

  As a rule of thumb... every dollar you pay in wage... double that to cover admistration and other costs associated with that employee.

  But youre right... GM in Michigan pay grades run anyplace from low teens to over $30 an hour depending on what you do and seniority.

  BIG 3 companies allow a lot of contract workers on site too... hired by temp services and agencies ... Now how the UNION allows that I'd never know.... but when you furlough folks who wont transfer and pay scale to sit home.... go figure.

  Maybe the UAW is a union that needs busting... and Auto needs to face the realities of 'free markets' for the first time in a long time. Both groups feed each other and both have been in a vacum so long they really dont grasp reality.

  Hill
• 

  BurnTheShips

  The first global cost of a bailout could be less foreign direct investment (FDI) coming into the United States. On Sunday, President-elect Barack Obama asked, "What does a sustainable U.S. auto industry look like?"

  Well, it looks a lot like the automotive industry run by "foreign" car companies that insource jobs into the U.S. In 2006 these foreign auto makers (multinational auto or auto-parts companies that are headquartered outside of the U.S.) employed 402,800 Americans. The average annual compensation for these employees was $63,538.

  At the head of the line of sustainable auto companies stands Toyota. In its 2008 fiscal year, it earned a remarkable $17.1 billion world-wide and assembled 1.66 million motor vehicles in North America. Toyota has production facilities in seven states and R&D facilities in three others. Honda, another sustainable auto company, operates in five states and earned $6 billion in net income in 2008. In contrast, General Motors lost $38.7 billion last year.

  Across all industries in 2006, insourcing companies registered $2.8 trillion in U.S. sales while employing 5.3 million Americans and paying them $364 billion in compensation. But as the world has grown smaller, today the U.S. faces increasingly stiff competition to attract and retain insourcing companies. Indeed, the U.S. share of global FDI inflows has already fallen. From 2003-2005 the U.S. received 16% of global FDI. That's down from 31.5% it received in 1988-1990.

  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122714450941743143.html

  BTS
• 

  hillbilly

  last gig I worked out of my local the wages were $31 hour.... the contractor payed in 20% to a Annuity-Pension fund and .05 an hour went to a Vacation fund....

  $31-cash

  $6 -pension

  that left about

  $8 an hour to fund a major medical... all dependents, low co pays on some stuff, 90/10 plan with dental and optical coverage

  so ...that's about $45 "on the check"

  But the work gets estimated at about $80-90 a man hour. Equipment costs get extimated at about double the apparent operating cost too.

  Ya know... in the heavy electrical construction game I know several guys who became wealthy and a couple whol lost their shirts... it's all how well you sharpen the pencil and control costs and efficiency on the jobs you bid.

  When Auto learns to think like a "business" things will be good and the Blue collar will make some money too.

  Hill
• 

  beksbks

  Start at the top. Start with the guys making nearly 500% more than the average worker. Not with the worker.
• 

  hillbilly

  Start at the top. Start with the guys making nearly 500% more than the average worker. Not with the worker.

  ~Beks

  And what really makes that a revelation that CEO guy is NOT the night manager at Denny's by the grace of God. That top 5% of the grossley overpaid execs are the prime members of the "who ya bl*w and who ya know" class.

  If we need to worry about stuff lets look at all the job titles that come under "salary" now days... with diminished federal work rules.

  Hill
• 

  Brother Apostate

  It would help alot on this discussion, on both threads, if two things were clarified:

  Start with the guys making nearly 500% more than the average worker.

  The average wage for a unionized worker at one of the big auto maker plants is $70+/hour plus benefits.

  And similar comments.

  First, unsourced statements are made about hourly wages earned by UAW employees. I have read figures all over the internet that range from 20 some dollars per hour to 80 some dollars per hour. In reading these articles, if you read between the lines, in no case are the figures substantiated.

  It appears to me that the higher figures ($70-$80/per hour) are arrived at by dividing total compensation over number of all employees, including executives.

  It appears to me that the actual wages per hour are deliberately obscured in every article I read, so I think it best to go with the comments of those who claim to be in or around the industry.

  So, let's say loaded cost of the average UAW worker is $40/hour.

  That is a cost per worker of $83,200 per year.

  Or, if you like, go with the higher estimate of $73/hr, per this source: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-10-09-auto-exec-pay_N.htm

  Excerpt:

  "It's estimated that GM workers earn an average $73 an hour when benefits including health care and pensions are added in. That appears to be about $25 an hour more than Toyota's U.S. workers. Toyota and GM workers earn about the same hourly wages. Benefits are what push the UAW members ahead. The GM contract slashes the hourly rate by making changes in retiree health care. The contract also will allow GM to bring in certain workers at lower wages."

  At $73/hr, that is a cost per worker of $151,840 per year.

  Now, according to generally available sources:

  GM

  CEO Rick Wagoner's salary and other compensation rose 64 percent in 2007 to about $15.7 million
  

  Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSN2534738420080425

  Ford

  reported CEO Mulally received $2 million in base salary, a $4 million bonus and more than $11 million of stock and options in 2007. His base salary was unchanged over 2006. Mr. Mulally has earned nearly $50 million in compensation since taking the helm of the auto maker. That's $17 million for Ford's CEO.
  

  Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122702915620437775.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

  Chrysler

  CEO Nardelli- no information available on hois real compensation package. But earlier figures before the buyout by cerberus have CEO compensation in the same range as above, averaging $16-17 million.
  

  So, what is the point? It is this:

  The average big 3 CEO is being paid $16.5 million per year, while the average UAW employee makes, using the higher figure, $151,840 per year.
  

  In other words, these CEOs make 109 times what the average UAW worker makes!!!! That is not 500%, but 10,900% what the average UAW worker makes!!!

  Do you really think

  that these CEOs provide as much value to the shareholder and the consumer as 109 employees who actually manufacture the product?
  

  Obviously, if the average UAW worker is making less, then that figure becomes even more obscene.

  By comparison:

  Toyota'

  s top 37 executives earned a combined $21.6 million in salary and bonuses
  

  Honda

  , the top 21 earned $11.1 million, combined, in salary and bonuses

  Source: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-10-09-auto-exec-pay_N.htm

  The point is that while UAW employees are definitely overpaid, it is that CEO and other Executives, with their outrageous compensation that is killing the Big 3!!!!

  The larger point is that this is not only an issue with the Big 3- it is problem with NEARLY ALL US Corporations!!!

  This is why the US is experiencing the crumbling of it's financial status. Every publicly traded company must must reign executive compensation into a reasonable ratio as compared to employee pay (privately held corps should be exempt), or this country's standard of living will continue to slide down the tubes.

  This won't happen of course, so get ready for the Great Depression II. Why? The politicians are bought and payed for by corporate lobbyists, so they spinelessly sell out this country to the wealthy elite.

  BA- Clarifying things.
• 

  Sunnygal41

  First of all, thanks to all who contributed so much to this thread...........I have gotten a clearer picture of the situation.

  It sounds like most of us agree that HUGE CHANGES need to be made, and I think that NOW is the absolute best time for all of this to come to a head. Time to clean house and get rid of everything that doesn't work, and set up a system that will, and that takes everyone under a fair and just evaluation. Hopefully it won't be too bloody of a Revolution!
• 

  hillbilly

  4 year contract to pay for our medical costs. We gave up cost of living increses to pay for retiree medical care. A separate fund is being set up from these cost savings to cover most retiree medical costs. Also, retirees are now required to begin paying for their medical insurance. Autoworkers as a whole are not a heathy group due in part to all the mandatory overtime- six days a week and 9-10 hrs a day and hard repetitive assembly line work.. In 11 years from 1994-2005 I was forced to work 440 Saturdays and missed out on a lot of my kids life. Yes, the money was good, but it was not easy or healthy working in a foundry environment. Young people today will not work those types of gritty jobs or give up their weekend free time, it seems. ~Moshe

  Now lets get this right...you pay Union dues and :

  your workforce is not healthty because of the work you do? (I worked 30 years in a truly dangerous enterprise... we make choices and are rewarded for risks. Get over it.)

  you were forced to work more that 40 hours a week (remember the "Union" invented the weekend)

  I work Union too, Moshe.... what are the dues over there in a UAW plant? Sounds like it's a gype. But on the other hand ...you make a case for the other side... you get the chance to make big bucks and you have affordable insurance that is worth something... most Americans would kill to pay a partial premium to get UAW insurance.

  I understand what your saying Brother.. but the way you said sounds like it makes a case for those who lampoon labor and what it stands for.

  Side note... we cant get kids to work in our game either these days. Why work in the weather for $30 when you can sit in a phone room for $7? Dont make sense to me either. Damned video games.

  Hill
• 

  sammielee24

  Sorry hon, I disagree. The average wage for a unionized worker at one of the big auto maker plants is $70+/hour plus benefits. That is slightly beyond "good wages"----it's an extreme amount to pay for the type of work they do. When you factor in all the executive salaries, bonuses, and the good ol' private jet life, coupled with the fact that these guys have been producing huge gas-guzzling vehicles without staying competative, then what a huge surprise that they're now in dire straits. Toyota pays their employees around $38.00 on average (at least here in Ontario), they build smaller, more efficient cars and still manage to make a damn good profit. How can anyone justify paying the auto workers $70.00

  Mary - my father and my uncles all worked at GM in Canada - NOT one of them made that kind of wage. NOT ONE. They did have to work mandatory overtime in an agreement that GM management signed with the unions, so that figure somehow might have been added in to make it look higher - but believe me NOT one of them ever came close to that figure. I worked in the industry and nobody except the top management salaried men made that kind of money. Overtime other than mandatory was open to the employees like any other business, so if anybody wants to jump those figures in then they will and then say it's the average wage. My brother in law works in an unrelated industry, manual labor, but he willingly works every single extra hour he can get. His wages with all that overtime and benefits included would be around the 65 figure per hour - every time they cut back and lay people off, he goes back to less than half that figure. The company chooses to utilize the current employees for overtime, some of it mandatory, instead of hiring more people..so what are we saying? We don't want people to put in extra time and make more money or we want them to do what it takes to earn more money? If they don't, then they are lazy louts and not any benefit to the company but if they do, then what we have is the shirts telling the world how good the wages are. It's a no win.

  I'm going to scout around for some facts from people who work on the ground, in the factories instead of the talking heads..

  Doomed by $4-a-gallon gasoline, sales of the sport utility vehicle are crashing - and taking General Motors Corp.'s Janesville assembly plant with them. GM announced Tuesday that production will end in 2010 if not sooner at the 2,400-worker factory and three other North American plants that make SUVs and trucks that many people cannot afford to drive anymore.

  The announcement, a concession that energy costs are likely to remain high for the long term, left many Rock County residents wondering about their economic future. Wages at the GM plant, which opened in 1919 and once employed 7,000 people, are in the range of $28 an hour. Plenty of nearby GM suppliers, such as seat-maker Lear Corp., also could be forced to cut production and jobs in the next two years."I'm devastated," said Bill Breidenstein, 72, a GM retiree who worked at the plant for 31 years. "I've got two daughters who work at Lear. My youngest son works at GM, and they're all going to be affected."When you rely on an income to survive, and all of a sudden that income's gone. . ." he said, his voice trailing off. "It's not affecting me personally as much as the whole family. It's going to tear us apart."

  Since 1999, the number of automotive workers employed in Indiana has declined from 105,100 in 1999 to 81,200 in 2007. And even though the starting hourly wage at the plant is $18.41, or roughly $10 less than an average Detroit Three worker, demand for these jobs was off the charts.

  When Honda announced it was hiring 900 employees, 33,000 people applied. Honda eventually plans to employ about 2,000 at the plant, which started production in October.
• 

  sammielee24

  Just thought I'd provide a comparison of paid auto workers against other industry - unionized of course. This is the 2008 pay scale I found - these are base wages so the higher the grid you climb, the more you are paid.

  Building Contractor - base 30.32 plus benefits = 51.35; Cement Mason base 27.27 plus benefits = 44.85; Electrical workers base 35.85 plus benefits = 55.06; Glaziers base 28.45 plus benefits = 42.65; Ironworkers base 28.93 plus benefits = 55.10; Painters base 25.06 plus benefits = 39.86; Roofers base 28.66 plus benefits = 48.87 and Plumbers base 32.78 plus benefits = 53.

  Now - a non union worker, often uncertified, and in the USA a lot of illegals worked construction, were being paid 8-10.00 an hour, cash. This cash allowed the employer to pay no tax on the wages and many of those people were able to collect welfare benefits and health care at the same time. This cheap labour allowed the builders to push up more housing and increase profit dramatically - now we are sitting on all that excess inventory.

  So I suppose when I look at it all - I would be willing to have the government give me food stamps, clothing allowances, transportation funds and help pay for my rent and utilities and still give me a card to see the doctor when I need to or go the hospital when I had to without paying for it. It would be icing on the cake if I could get all that and earn 10 bucks an hour cash without anybody knowing about it. Sweet deal - I'd be sending that cash back to my relatives to put in the bank so I could go up and buy a cottage to live in.

  I guess the offshoot would be a good paying job that would allow me to make my own way hopefully a unionized job where I paid my taxes, put some aside for retirement, allowed me to pay into my own health care, pay for my own vacations and mortgage and put a little aside for my kids education.

  sammieswife.