That would be the scriptures that were put together for the first time by ....... (wait for it) ..... Trinitarians in 397AD. No list of books of the Bible as we use them today existed before that. Marcion taught us that you can make the Bible say whatever you want when you get to pick the books and the version of the books with whatever changed language and redacted phrases you want. The history of traditional Church teaching is a history of arrogance and stomping anyone with different views. (Gnostics, Arians, Montanists, etc...) The Church that WON is no more authentic than Mike Tyson.
Jesus Is Jehovah/Jehovah Is Jesus
by snowbird 328 Replies latest watchtower bible
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snowbird
I agree with Godrulz on everything except the Trinity.
I DO NOT accept the Holy Spirit as being God.
Syl
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godrulz
Snow, you are binitarian? You seem to believe that Jesus is YHWH, Almighty God, uncreated Creator. Perhaps you are more modalistic? The Deity/personality of the Spirit is defensible from Scripture leading to a trinitarian view (Mt. 28:18-20; 2 Cor. 13:14). The Father, Son, Spirit are included in the same context. Do you still think He (note personal pronouns Jn. 14-16) is an active force or just the spirit of the Father? In Acts, they lied to the Holy Spirit and it says they lied to God in doing this (only a person/God can be lied to).
all: you are displaying ignorance of church history and the history of dogma.
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Ding
Syl,
I've sent you a PM regarding the Holy Spirit.
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Shanagirl
HI Snowbird,
I am new here. I believe Jesus is the exact opposite and does not have anything to do with the creator god of the Hebrew Scriptures. That god is the "blind god" who is known as Yaldabaoth in older stories from pre Bible times. He is spoken about in the Apocryphal book of John, were Jesus identifies him. Jesus emmianted from the True God of Light who begot him thru his forethought. Jesus refers to the True God as Light, Love, ineffable, unnameable, the All. Yaldabaoth identifies himself as I Am the only God, there are no other Gods but me" I am a jealous God.......... This false creator being is the creator of corruptible matter and is the god of the OT who ordered blood sacrifices and mass murders of men women and child virgins. He scared the Israelites into exlusive worship of him and the Christ who came and is mentioned in the New Testament, has never endorsed this Jehovah , Yaweh Yaldabaoth god as his Father. I believe the Gnositc Christian teachings about this, and I think the ancient Paulinian Christian Fathers kept this information out of the New Testament Scriptures. Jesus is the the one in the beginning with the Word of God, and the only begotten emmination of the Father who is speaks the words of the True God, not the Jehovah gods (Elohim). Anyway, so this is what I get from those teachings
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snowbird
I don't have a label, Godrulz.
Thanks to Ding; thanks and welcome, ShanaGirl.
Wow.
Syl
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ProdigalSon
Jeremy C nailed it two years ago on page 1. I'll bring it up here for convenience:
Forgive me for being so contrarian in this thread.
But, the way that I see it, Jehovah and Jesus are not the least bit related. They are polar opposites. In the Old Testament, Jehovah thought it just fine for Joshua and others to slaughter unarmed women and children, to kill infants, and for men to use women for their own sexual indulgements. Yahweh has all of the anthropomorphic atributes of any Roman or Greek God: insecurity, jealousy, fitful outbursts of rage, and arranging elaborate natural disasters to smite his enemies (how can the omnipotent have enemies?) when simply euthenizing them would have sufficed. Yahweh was a fickle, arbitrary, and petty deity who easily got his nose out of joint for the most silly of indescretions. (why would the omnipotent power of the universe care whether or not a man cut off his foreskin, or hair?)
Jesus Christ (at least what is recorded of him) does not even remotely display or express these neurotic personality disorders. I find it curious that there is no Gospel account of Jesus using his Godly power to kill anyone or to strike anyone with leprosy the way that he so easily did in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, he had no issues with commanding his pet nation to slaughter other nations, yet when he comes to earth; he delivers the "Good Samaritan" parable. I simply see no connection whith Yahweh and Jesus.
Of course, this may be all academic; since I do not believe in the Bible one way or the other.
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Band on the Run
I bring legal training to my reading of text. When I practice, it is crucial that I note everything aginst my client. Without recognizing what is not a good position, I cannot carve out good advocacy. The text is definitely not clear. If the text were clear, this post would not exist. There would be no schism between trinitarians and uniterains. Both views are extrapolitions from scripture.
Are you aware that Lord does not mean God, but a title of deep respect. I've poured over the text for years. Generations have poured over the text. Early Christians in the first generation had differing views of His nature.
I believe in the Trinity through Faith and tradition. As crucial as Jesus is to me, I know I could be very wrong.
My point is that his nature was not important enough to Jesus to clearly reveal and explain it. Perhaps he did during the post-Resurrection experiences. If he did, why were his teachings not written. What happens as Jesus of nazareth is interesting but what happens to the Risen Christ, fully in glory, is much more compelling. It is not just that the Bible does not address it fully, but only hints, but the church also seems to find it unimportant. Stepehn spoke Greek. Perhaps it was Greek spoeakers who first asserted his nature. What the Witnesses teach of Christ's nature should not have had anyone stoned. Christology is missing from the gospels. IMO. Paul uses soaring language but, on its face, does he truly say Christ is God?
Why would anyone argue over it if it is clear? My belief is my choice, not my intellectual positoin.
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OBVES
This position is of Harold Camping known now to all the world because of his May 21,2011 proclamation .
He is 100% sure that Jesus is Jehovah . He was 100% sure there is hot hell just few years ago .He was 100% sure Jesus would return on May 21,2011 .
He is number 1 Bible preacher on radio and he has studied the Bible for more than 50 years or so like may no other human being .
Jesus is not Jehovah or God literally .The words Jehovah or God must be applied and understood in theire contextual appearance .
The name of God Yahweh ( Jehovah ) is written on the foreheads of his great servants -Revelation 14.1 .
If you could see these servants there are no names written literally on them but they are like Jehovah . You can imagine the name Jehovah written on their foreheads and you walk by and see all have names on them and would assume they are jehovahs .But there is one true God Jehovah who is the only true God .
In the Hebrew we must read the words like this in the contexts they appear and link to other related references that we may have .
In the English language we have an easy task to explain these matters .
YAHWEH ( JEHOVAH ) is GOD . Jesus is God , 144000 other servants are gods.
The same rule applied we have JEHOVAH - the only true GOD , Jesus Jehovah , God and 144000 servants jehovahs ,gods.
JEHOVAH here is not the same like Jehovah .
To make it clear when speaking we should stress JEHOVAH is not Jesus in speaking we don's see capital letters so we should narrow aplication of the word Jehovah .Simply God the Father is Jehovah alone to prevent misunderstanding among listeners.
Or you can say Jesus is Jehovah figuratively just as he is God figuratively.
When we speak about God the Father Jesus is "God" . God is Jehovah - God the Father .Jesus is "Jehovah" .
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godrulz
Camping can have a sound Christology with a defective eschatology. It is a logical fallacy to discredit his belief in the existence of God because he acted in the flesh contrary to Scripture in playing the Dating Game.
Band: Jesus is more than lord, sir. Kurios/Lord was the inspired name/title used in NT Greek for YHWH. OT verses about YHWH are applied to Jesus. In Pauline thought, for Jesus to be Lord and confessed as such is to call Him God (Rom. 10; Phil. 2). Saying you have a belief that is not an intellectual position is odd and risky.