Reniaa.
John 14:9
Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father.
Is Jesus Jehovah?
by lostsheep82 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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possible-san
Hi, reniaa.
Although I myself do not believe the Trinity, and I do not have the duty to defend that doctrine, I am explaining the accurate "Trinity theory" to you.
Probably, if you understand the Trinity correctly, you will notice that it is not so much different from your current belief.Since I do not speak English at all, an accurate description is impossible, but I would like to try explanation.
““Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”
DEUTERONOMY 6:4 (NWT)
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/de/chapter_006.htm#bk4Although it seems that you stick in this Scripture, this Scripture is used as a proof of the Trinity.
Also in the Trinity doctrine, it is because God is one.Jehovah is the name of "the Father" clearly.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/ps/chapter_110.htm#bk1
But the divine name called Jehovah means "I AM."
And Jesus is "I AM."
But it does not mean "The Father is the Son."
That is, it is not the meaning "Jehovah is Jesus." -
passwordprotected
Anyone else reckon Reniaa must be auxiliary pioneering this month? She's cranking out HUGE hours.
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reniaa
Hi password good day hun,
lol you I think are the first to accuse me of being a witness on my new stint on this board :) probs the first of many :S, you should take a hint from topix forum the Posters on there can pretty accurately judge were you are at spiritually, lol they are not fooled into thinking I am an active JW at all!
here is an interesting thing I'd like to share on why trinity doctrine is so much about nature, substance etc when this isn't biblical
Who were the first theologians to coin the word “trinity” as they “constructed the doctrine”? The Catholic Encyclopedia informs us: “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian.” However, Theophilus’ triad was made up of “God, and His Word, and His wisdom”—hardly Christendom’s Trinity! As to Tertullian, the encyclopedia admits that “his Trinitarian teaching is inconsistent,” among other things because he held that “there was a time when there was no Son.” So the least that can be said is that these two men had in mind something quite different from Christendom’s coeternal Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
But the word “trinity” stuck, and later theologians gradually “constructed the doctrine” as we know it today. Did they, however, build it on the foundation of Scripture? No, but on theology or philosophy. The Encyclopædia Britannica states: “Christian theology took the Neoplatonic metaphysics [philosophy] of substance as well as its doctrine of hypostases [essence, or nature] as the departure point for interpreting the relationship of the ‘Father’ to the ‘Son.’” Their problem was to make “God the Father,” “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” not three Gods but one. For years, they quarreled over whether the persons of the Trinity were of similar substance (Greek, homoiousia) or of the same substance (homoousia). This controversy was settled in favor of homoousia at the Councils of Nicaea in 325 C.E. and Constantinople in 381 C.E.
The Britannica adds: “From the outset, the controversy between both parties [at Nicaea] took place upon the common basis of the Neoplatonic concept of substance, which was foreign to the New Testament itself. It is no wonder that the continuation of the dispute on the basis of the metaphysics of substance likewise led to concepts that have no foundation in the New Testament.” Thus, the very concept of a God in three persons of one substance is founded on theology or philosophy, but not on the ScripturesI have yet to see anyone yet provide evedence other than assumption that Jesus is YHVH, Iam is weak because the original languages do not back this up.
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reniaa
good morning burn
john is a nice scripture but it is misaplied as a jesus divinity proof text unless we are all gods to because later in the same conversation Jesus says
john 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
you cannot use 16 without also applying it to 20 and making us all gods and part of the godhead.
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isaacaustin
simple one isaac since Jesus represents Jehovah is given authority to act on his behalf then both are right. same as angel of God represented Jehovah in OT.
Actually reniaa, the Son is the perfect agent in carrying out his Father's decisions. Zech says that Jehovah's (remember Jehovah is the Divine Being) feet actually will touch the mountain. They will- when Jesus (also called Jehovah, the Divine Being) reutrns.
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possible-san
Since I do not speak English at all, I do not know in detail, but doesn't "john" (small letter, J) become a different meaning by slang?
(that is ..., toilet, bathroom; client of a prostitute) -
Narkissos
john is a nice scripture but it is misaplied as a jesus divinity proof text unless we are all gods to because later in the same conversation Jesus says
john 14:20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
you cannot use 16 without also applying it to 20 and making us all gods and part of the godhead.
You are closer than you think to the core of Johannine theology. Just consider the "unless" part seriously instead of dismissing it implicitly as an ab absurdo argument in your anachronistic anti-Trinitarian rhetorics.
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Chalam
Hi,
"Is it possible for Jehovah to be in heavens as spirit, yet on earth as Jesus at the same time?"
Try these for size...
Mark 14:35-36 (New International Version)
35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 "Abba, [ a ] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
Romans 8:14-15 (New International Version)
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. [ a ] And by him we cry, "Abba, [ b ] Father."
Galatians 4:6-7 (New International Version)
6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, [ a ] Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
In short, the Spirit of God is the same as the Spirit of the Son.
Still not sure?
John 15:26 (New International Version)
26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
All the best,
Stephen
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Leolaia
I have already presented in earlier threads many examples from the Pauline letters in which Paul applies scriptures referring to Yahweh ("Lord" in the LXX) to Jesus. In this example, Paul compares the way the "Lord" (whose blood some sin against) punishes those who defile the Lord's supper with how he earlier punished the Israelites in the wilderness who put him to the test:
"These things occurred [to the Israelites] as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: 'The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry' (cf. Exodus 32:6). We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died (cf. Numbers 25). We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes (cf. Numbers 21:6). And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel (cf. Numbers 14). These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come....You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Are we trying to provoke the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he? .... Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have died. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world (1 Corinthians 10:6-11, 21-22, 11:27-32).
Notice that the reference to the "body and blood of the Lord" can only refer to Jesus. And the way that the Lord, against whose blood the people disrespect, presently punishes the people with sickness and death is the same as how the Lord punished the Israelites with death (see the passages in blue). Many of these references to the "Lord" have an OT exegetical basis, allusive of statements that originally referred to Yahweh:
"We should not test the Lord" (1 Corinthians 10:9) → "Do not put the Lord (MT: Yahweh) your God to the test" (Deuteronomy 6:16 LXX).
"You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the table of the Lord and the table of demons" (1 Corinthians 10:21) → "By bringing defiled loaves to my altar [Judah despised my name]... The table of the Lord (MT: Yahweh) is defiled, and its food set forth is despised.... Judah profaned the sacred things of the Lord with which he loved and busied himself with foreign gods" (Malachi 1:6-12, 2:11-12 LXX).
"Are we trying to provoke the Lord's jealousy?" (1 Corinthians 10:22) → "And the Lord (MT: Yahweh) saw it and was jealous, and he was provoked on account of the wrath of his sons and daughters....They made me jealous with what is no god, provoked me with their idols" (Deuteronomy 6:15, 32:21 LXX).
"The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it" (1 Corinthians 10:26) → "The Lord's (MT: Yahweh's) is the earth and its fullness, the world and all those who live in it" (Psalm 24:1 LXX).
"When we are being judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined" (1 Corinthians 11:32) → "The Lord (MT: Yahweh) will judge his people and be comforted by his slaves" (Deuteronomy 32:36 LXX).
It is also worth comparing how other early Christians described the "Lord" of the OT as the Christ. Here is what Justin Martyr (whom the Society erroneously says regarded Jesus as a "created angel") wrote:
"For at this time, when Moses was ordered to go down to Egypt and bring out the Israelites who were there, and while he was tending the sheep of his mother's brother in the land of Arabia, our Christ talked with him in the shape of fire from a bush. Indeed, He said: 'Put off your shoes, draw near and hear.' When he had taken off his shoes, he approached the burning bush and heard that he was to go down into Egypt and bring out the people of Israel who were in that land; and he received great power from Christ who spoke to him under the form of fire. . . .Even now, all Jews teach that the ineffable God [the Father] spoke to Moses. . . .Because the Jews did not know the nature of the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ likewise upbraided them, saying: 'No one knows the Father except the Son; nor does anyone know the Son except the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him.' Now, the Word of God is His Son, as we have already stated, and He is called Angel and Apostle; for, as Angel He announces all that we must know, and [as Apostle] He is sent forth to inform us of what has been revealed, as our Lord Himself says: 'He that hears me, hears Him that sent me.' This will be further clarified from the following words of Moses: 'And the Angel of God spoke to Moses in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush and said,"I AM WHO AM, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of your fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth my people." ' If you are curious to know what happened after this, you can find out by consulting these same Mosaic writings, for it is impossible to recount everything in this work. What has been written has been set down to prove that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, appearing at one time in the form of fire, at another under the guise of incorporeal beings, but now, at the will of God, after becoming man for mankind, He bore all the torments which the demons prompted the rabid Jews to wreak upon Him. . . . The Jews assert that it was the Father and Maker of all things who spoke thus. Hence, the Prophetic Spirit reproaches them, saying: 'Israel has not known me, and my people have not understood me.' And again, as we have already shown, Jesus, while in their midst, said: 'No one knows the Father except the Son, nor does anyone know the Son except the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him.' The Jews, therefore, always of the opinion that the Universal Father spoke to Moses, while in fact it was the very Son of God, who is styled both Angel and Apostle, were justly reproached by both the Prophetic Spirit and by Christ Himself, since they know neither the Father nor the Son. For, they who claim that the Son is the Father are reproached for knowing neither the Father nor that the Father of all has a Son, who, as the First-born Word of God, is also God." (1 Apology 62-63).