Well we can only test the faiths against the bible standard. Is Jesus Jehovah? Well Deut 6:4 declares YHVH is our one God the our first commandments one that was enforced to the point of death by Jews did he lie to them? did he make the light get brighter only for the christians of the 3rd century who saw Jesus was fully God and a birth of a new 3 =1 belief was born with caesar instruction and endorcement? My reply Again, one is used in the same fashion Adam and Eve were one flesh- operation. Are the Jws lying when they say fornication is condemned by the bible and adultery? my reply no, but are they the only group who teach this? are the Jws lying when they say the bible teaches women are not to be leaders is that unbiblical? my reply that is quite a debatable topic. An understanding would tell you Paul is correcting false viewpoints...not teaching that woman can not be leaders. Does the bible teach we should worship Jesus's death image? my reply Neither do Christians. You have tried this point in the past and been slapped down. When personal opinion clashes with the bible do you choose personal opinion? My reply No, do you? As a rule of thumb the more unbiblical rhetoric a teaching needs the less I believe it, a one God teaching needs no rhetoric only scriptures easily found. my reply One God- yes. The nature is of 3 person. isaac you tell me trinity allows for Jesus to be God my reply yes yet not to be YHVH What? YHWH is the name of the Divine Being. All three persons are called YHWH. and still be biblical given deut teaches YHVH is our one almighty God. One almighty God- 3 persons united in operation...operating as 1 flesh. you have yet to give me a convincing point on this biblically. my reply: Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? ((((this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. ))))))))))) Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. Jesus will return, landing on the Mount of Olives...same exact way he ascended. Ok Does the OT speak of this? Yes! Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD (Jehovah in the NWT) cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD (Jehovah in the NWT) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Zec 14:4 (((((And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east)))) and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Go search your WT CD for the answer to this one reniaa
Is Jesus Jehovah?
by lostsheep82 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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BurnTheShips
we have leaders did the trinity sit in asynod and have a caesar tell them to preach trinity to there followers thus changing chrisitanity forever?
Reniaa. You mischaracterize the development of Trinitarian doctrine. You are aping just what the WT puts out on the subject.
We are given the bible and holy spirit for guidance if we wouldn't have such a fractured faith now.
It is precisely because of private interpretation that we have so many Christian sects.
You don't address the WT interpretation as one of many, but as the only correct one.
I ask you two questions:
What is the pillar and bulwark of the truth, Reniaa?
What did Christians have before the closing of the Scriptural canon in the 4th century?
BTS
BTS
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isaacaustin
Well i'm addressing the topic in hand do you want me to address an off topic issue like gb? we have leaders did the trinity sit in asynod and have a caesar tell them to preach trinity to there followers thus changing chrisitanity forever? We are given the bible and holy spirit for guidance if we wouldn't have such a fractured faith now. to be honest I find it hard to believe there are so few monotheistic christian faiths, I know christianity had a policy of killing and destroting all heresy but even so the percentages just don't add up. Did paul and others use biblical priciple and debate to decide on circumcism? the answer to that is why we have leaders and as to whether the Jws are the one true faith. mathew 13 :24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' 28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' " and the explanation mathew 13 : 36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field." 37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. this is a prophecy from Jesus how do you understand it? Quite simply, Chrisitanity will be filled with good and bad followers. True and not so true Christians. Man is not to uproot, all will be judged in the end.
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reniaa
sorry must be dumb isaac what point are you trying to make with this scripture that jesus is YHVH? how?
this is not a clear scripture that way, it's a situational scripture that could be misconstrued, there is also no doctrinal statement?
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isaacaustin
reniaa, I think you looked at the worng post. let's try again: Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? ((((this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. ))))))))))) Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. Jesus will return, landing on the Mount of Olives...same exact way he ascended. Ok Does the OT speak of this? Yes! Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD (Jehovah in the NWT) cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD (Jehovah in the NWT) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Zec 14:4 (((((And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east)))) and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Go search your WT CD for the answer to this one
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aniron
Would it be impossible for God to be a Trinity?
And I don't mean the Watchtowers version of three gods.
But the Christian teaching that the Trinity is God in three persons.
Would it be impossible for it to be so?
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reniaa
simple one isaac since Jesus represents Jehovah is given authority to act on his behalf then both are right. same as angel of God represented Jehovah in OT.
If an action is done in Jehovah's name it can be said to be Jehovah's action.
If a Manager of a building firm pays builders to build a house for him, can he say he built it but can the builder also say he built it?
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reniaa
hi aniron, in answer to your question I think so it causes to many biblical contradictions,
God cannot die, hab 1:12
Jesus never proclaiming himself to be YHVH.
God never being a man. (lol forgot scripture.
Jesus only admitting to be God's son even when being accused of being God. john 10 33-36
and others but the biggest trap is people showing you various 'what they call' proof texts of Jessu's divinity and using this as proof of trinity, IT ISN'T I cannot emphasise to much how a duo God of Jesus and Jehovah is not Trinity, holy spirit has to be part of the three and this is the weakest link because it just isn't in the bible.
Not only that, but a lot of the socalled divinity proof texts actually disprove trinity, take 'I am my father are one' a favourite but why isn't holy spirit mentioned if this is a statement of God's oneness and nature?
Why are god and Jesus always shown without the Holy spirit when pictured together? If jesus is on god's righthand why is the holy spirits postiion mentioned?
Why is god the father called Jesus's father when this is a lie if the person of the holy spirit dot Jesus's mother pregnant? you can only call the father Jesus's father if the holy spirit is his power and not a person. but Jesus never calls the holy spirit his father.
If a teaching is biblical it shouldn't need anything more than scripture to explain it and it certainly shouldn't cause massive contradictions especially that 3 majors religions come from the bible two teach one God belief ( jews, muslims) only Chrsitianity has gone from that even when Jesus himself says deut 6:4 is the greatest commandment and that is ONE god doctrine..
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sacolton
Jesus never proclaiming himself to be YHVH.
John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, `I am the Son of God.'"
John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
"When Jesus said 'I and the Father are one' didn't He just mean they are of one accord, they are merely like-minded?"
Taken alone, statements such as "I and the Father are one." and "The Father is in me, and I am in the Father." could mean simply that Jesus agrees with God. But in the overall context of the Bible this cannot be:
John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
John 17:10 [Speaking to the Father]All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Note: "Son of Man" was a term referring to the expected Messiah.
Mark 14:61b-62 [61b] Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" [62] "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Luke 22:66-70 [66] At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. [67] "If you are the Christ, " they said, "tell us." Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, [68] and if I asked you, you would not answer. [69] But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God." [70] They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
Daniel 7:13-14 [13] "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. [14] He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Jesus clearly and repeatedly indicated that He is not the one who "calls the shots".
John 14:31 the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
John 7:16 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me."
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me."
John 17:3-12 [3] Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. [4] I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. [5] And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. [6] I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. [7] Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. [8] For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. [9] I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. [10] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. [11] I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one. [12] While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
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cameo-d
Jesus is not Jehovah.
Neither is he Jehovah's son.
Jehovah of the Old Testament had man sons, the "sons of god".
Jesus's father had only ONE begotton son.
Jesus and Jehovah are no relation at all.