by lostsheep82 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I listened to it, leavingwt. It was excellent!
Cool.
I would pay money to have my JW parents listen to it. Not to convince them of the correctness of the Trinity, but to let them know that they do not belong to a special group that hold a monopoly on Biblical understanding.
-LWT
how can YHVH being mentioned alone in his oneness be irrelevent when you use adam and eve described as one to support your viewpoint.
thats is allowing for one what you won't in another.
Oneness when mentioned in union with some else both or all parties are mentioned. so adam and eve are mentioned. and what they are one over is mentioned too as in marraige in adam and eve's case, in agreement in God and Jesus's case but When YHVH is mentioned as one God none are mentioned none are mentioned with him, niether Jesus or holy spirit. that is why the whole lie of 1 john 5:7 had to be created.
Reniaa, how can it be three persons yet one God? When I was leaving the JWs I had been struggling with whether the Trinity could be true. Personally, I love the way C.S. Lewis explained it. God exists on a higher level than us.
You know that in space you can move in three ways-to left or right, backwards or forwards, up or down. Every direction is either one of these three or a compromise between them. They are called the three Dimensions. Now notice this. If you are using only one dimension, you could draw only a straight line. If you are using two, you could draw a figure: say, a square. And a square is made up of four straight lines. Now a step further. If you have three dimensions, you can then build what we call a solid body, say, a cube-a thing like a dice or a lump of sugar. And a cube is made up of six squares.
Do you see the point? A world of one dimension would be a straight line. In a two-dimensional world, you still get straight lines, but many lines make one figure. In a three-dimensional world, you still get figures but many figures make one solid body. In other words, as you advance to more real and more complicated levels, you do not leave behind you the things you found on the simpler levels: you still have them, but combined in new ways-in ways you could not imagine if you knew only the simpler levels.
Now the Christian account of God involves just the same principle. The human level is a simple and rather empty level. On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings-just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures. On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we, who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God's dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube. Of course we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint, of something super-personal-something more than a person. It is something we could never have guessed, and yet, once we have been told, one almost feels one ought to have been able to guess it because it fits in so well with all the things we know already.
how can YHVH being mentioned alone in his oneness be irrelevent when you use adam and eve described as one to support your viewpoint. thats is allowing for one what you won't in another. Oneness when mentioned in union with some else both or all parties are mentioned. so adam and eve are mentioned. and what they are one over is mentioned too as in marraige in adam and eve's case, in agreement in God and Jesus's case but When YHVH is mentioned as one God none are mentioned none are mentioned with him, niether Jesus or holy spirit. that is why the whole lie of 1 john 5:7 had to be created. No Reniaa. Gen is describing the creation of Adam and Eve and stating the perfect untiy they will operate in as 1 flesh. That's all there is to it. Deut 6:4 is telling the nation of Israel that YHWH is one God, which he is...in the sense of being in perfect unity and operation. The persons who share the nature as God are one spiritual flesh.
it's not for me to proof or disprove hypostatic union since it just isn't biblical it's is men trying to explain a contradiction. lets try another.
God IS not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Numbers 23:19
God is not man. circular reasoning is starting with the position "Jesus has to be God" therefore when the bible says things like God cannot die or God isn't man we have to find a way to explain these, so you come up with a long unbiblical rhetoric that has no scriptural bases, were does it say Jesus is fully man or fully God, that the god bit didn't die but the 'man' bit did? nowhere but in men's minds.
so with hypostatic union not only is god 3 =1 but Jesus is 2 = 1 with a detacheable God bit, which incidently isn't the father who spoke to him when he was baptised.
It is very easy today when Daniel 12.4,9 is being fullfilled before our eyes that the catholic religion is the most twisted form of christian religion. I am saying that with all honesty and I used to one of the best catholics . I was close on emabarking a great mission in 1973 AD with my brother claiming we those two witnesses of the Book of Revelation 11.1-9. We were going "to fight for" catholic religion as the only true religion !And teach the end of the world .
And the next year 1974 AD -"in a instant or so"- I disclaimed to be a catholic and have stayed on independent course for years without joining any church organization on this planet earth .
Now with the new religious views I can say in the most assured way the catholic religion is the most twisted form of christianity.It is contrary to the Bible .It is unimaginable to many that a religion of millions upon millions of people could be so wrong !
Any belief any catholic preaches should be checked out in the light of the Bible and the understanding that comes into light in our times ; as the knowledge of the Bible grows and many are left behind , sticking to the old unchanged and properly unverified views.
Catholic religion because it is an old religion already is destined to failure as it remained basically the same while now we witness the most prosperous period in understanding of the Bible.
All world religions are being torn down and will be so completely in 2011 AD if the prediction comes to pass.
You must look how the Bible is understood now ,not 40 years ago or 500 years ago.
it's not for me to proof or disprove hypostatic union since it just isn't biblical it's is men trying to explain a contradiction. lets try another. God IS not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Numbers 23:19 Correct. God is not wishy washy. This is not any sort of address as to nature or union and should not be taken as such. God is not man. circular reasoning is starting with the position "Jesus has to be God" therefore when the bible says things like God cannot die or God isn't man we have to find a way to explain these, both have been reasonably explained so you come up with a long unbiblical rhetoric that has no scriptural bases, were does it say Jesus is fully man or fully God, that the god bit didn't die but the 'man' bit did? nowhere but in men's minds. Scriputre shows jesus to be God. We know he became a man. Scripture shows he has retained both natures. What are you left with? so with hypostatic union not only is god 3 =1 but Jesus is 2 = 1 with a detacheable God bit, which incidently isn't the father who spoke to him when he was baptised. Your analysis here is incoherent.
again burn the ships I like cs lewis but he is trying to describe what he says is undescribable by men in human terms that have nothing to do with God, I can find many things made up of three but since none of them are God this is irrelevent, the point is we have the bible to describe God it says YHVH is one there is no mention of union with holy spirit or Jesus when it is talking about one God.
So people that want Jesus to be God have to make up one hense cs lewis in his own words is in effect condemning trinity because he realises Man cannot describe God yet Men invented the trinity to try and include Jesus as God when the bible doesn't teach this.
luke 18:18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
it's not for me to proof or disprove hypostatic union since it just isn't biblical it's is men trying to explain a contradiction. lets try another.
Reniaa. There is the difference between us. We start from different premises. You seem to believe that the bible is the sole rule and measure of faith. I do not agree with this. I believe the Bible is a rule, but not the only rule.
Pax.
BTS
again burn the ships I like cs lewis but he is trying to describe what he says is undescribable by men in human terms that have nothing to do with God, I can find many things made up of three but since none of them are God this is irrelevent, the point is we have the bible to describe God it says YHVH is one there is no mention of union with holy spirit or Jesus when it is talking about one God.
Reniaa, even Jesus taugh with illustrations and parables, I think your objection is groundless.
BTS
