hi san if trinity does not preach YHVH is JEsus how does it get past deut saying YHVH is the one true GOD? the Greek word used for one means unity. The same Greek word used to describe Adam and Eve being one flesh. Hi slim you make agood point JW's do allow for people in the bible to be called gods like Jesus in john 1:1 'a god' but there is a definite defining that only JEhovah is the ALmighty God and only one of him. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 (New International Version) 4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. ok, fine Reniaa. There is only one God. If you want to use it that way then there is only 1 Lord. Is Jehovah ever called Lord? they take their queue from this scripture
Is Jesus Jehovah?
by lostsheep82 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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isaacaustin
hi san if trinity does not preach YHVH is JEsus how does it get past deut saying YHVH is the one true GOD? the Greek word used for one means unity. The same Greek word used to describe Adam and Eve being one flesh. Hi slim you make agood point JW's do allow for people in the bible to be called gods like Jesus in john 1:1 'a god' but there is a definite defining that only JEhovah is the ALmighty God and only one of him. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 (New International Version) 4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. ok, fine Reniaa. There is only one God. If you want to use it that way then there is only 1 Lord. Is Jehovah ever called Lord? they take their queue from this scripture
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slimboyfat
This game should be played starting from the premise that the Bible is God's inspired word and that all parts are in perfect harmony with one another.
Well in that case you can either use the early "henotheistic" scriptures to neutralise the "strict monotheistic" scriptures and end up with the JW position.
Or you can use the "strict monotheistic" passages to counter the "henotheistic" traces and end up with the Evangelical position.
It can go either way, which is why I tend to think that arguing with JWs within the "system of thought" is a bit useless. They can always create an inventive solution to any exegetical problem according to the rules of the game. That is why it was only when I decided to dispense with those rules altogether that I could meaningfully say I disagreed with JWs. (I think)
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isaacaustin
let me format this better: hi san if trinity does not preach YHVH is JEsus how does it get past deut saying YHVH is the one true GOD? the Greek word used for one means unity. The same Greek word used to describe Adam and Eve being one flesh. Hi slim you make agood point JW's do allow for people in the bible to be called gods like Jesus in john 1:1 'a god' but there is a definite defining that only JEhovah is the ALmighty God and only one of him. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 (New International Version) 4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. ok, fine Reniaa. There is only one God. If you want to use it that way then there is only 1 Lord. Is Jehovah ever called Lord? In relaity- this verse in Cor in not using God and lord as distinguishing titles but rather interchangeably. Reread verse 5- there are many so-called Gods/Lords..to us only one. He does not say that the Gods/Lords that are many are truly gods/Lords. There is only one true God and Lord. The titles God and Lord are used here interchangeably- not as distinguishing titles. 1 Corinthians 7 "17 Only, let every one lead the life which the Lord has assigned to him, and in which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches." - RSV Here you see the titles used interchangeably. Matthew 11:25 says that the Father is Lord of all. Acts 17:24 says the same thing. Acts 10:36 says Jesus is Lord of all.
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reniaa
isaac you do the argument I least understand you in effect saying the bible is contradicting itself by saying Jehovah is Lord in other scriptures, so this one that shows only Jesus is called 'the lord' therefore trinity must be right and the bible is wrong.
lol I'm not very good at this double negative reasoning to justify positions since Jw position is fairly simple, Jehovah is Almighty God and Jesus is his son enough said and easily supported biblically but then people get Plato-esk and thats were trinity comes in. the bible has no trinity doctrine there isn't one scripture that refers to it so we are placing our own interpretation trying to make a logical construct but deut 6:4 already causes it issues saying YHVH is the one true God.
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isaacaustin
isaac you do the argument I least understand you in effect saying the bible is contradicting itself by saying Jehovah is Lord in other scriptures, so this one that shows only Jesus is called 'the lord' therefore trinity must be right and the bible is wrong. lol I'm not very good at this double negative reasoning to justify positions since Jw position is fairly simple, Jehovah is Almighty God and Jesus is his son enough said and easily supported biblically but then people get Plato-esk and thats were trinity comes in. the bible has no trinity doctrine there isn't one scripture that refers to it so we are placing our own interpretation trying to make a logical construct but deut 6:4 already causes it issues saying YHVH is the one true God. I know you would least understand it Reniaa as it goes against what the WT says it means. The Bible would only be contradictory if that Cor verse was used in the way the WT is saying- that Lord and God are distinguishing titles.Jehovah- the Divine Being is called Lord. Jehovah, the Divine Being is called god. This is one God. He is manifest in three persons, yes. But that is not being discussed in this verse. This verse is mentioning how there are many so-called Gods and lords out there but to us there is only one. You totally ignored the explanation on Deut 6:4. One- united, unity. Such as Adam and Eve being 1 flesh- 2 persons.
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hamilcarr
since Jw position is fairly simple
Maybe the Bible is more complex than the NT. The Tetragrammaton is not mentioned in the original Greek NT MSS. If you believe that the bible forms one unity, you're led to the simple conlusion that JHWH and Jesus are manifestations from the same godhead, both emphasizing different aspects of the divine.
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reniaa
Sorry isaac just missed it so. adam and eve completely separate entities said to be one are the equvalent of Jesus and God being one. this does not compute because man is said to be one with God too therefore by your reasoning men are God too.
When the scriptures talk of YHWH being one God it is clearly not mentioning anyone else in that context of oneness so he is in fact One alone.
when jesus does mention himself with his father...
JOhn 10: 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [d] ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
firstly there is no mention of being one God and also he is saying the father is greater than him and has given him these things as a someone above him, there is no reason to take this scripture to mean more than oneness in purpose contextually.
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slimboyfat
The Tetragrammaton is not mentioned in the original Greek NT MSS.
(Even leaving aside the debate about whether the tetragram was used in the original New Testament as George Howard and David Trobisch have argued) I am not sure that is true:
Rev 3: 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 14: 1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
If you believe that the bible forms one unity, you're led to the simple conlusion that JHWH and Jesus are manifestations from the same godhead, both emphasizing different aspects of the divine.
I don't think so, and it's certainly not the only conclusion serious scholars of the NT have come to. See Pauline Christianity and Paul's letter to the Romans by John Ziesler for example, where he argues that YHWH is distinguished from Jesus in the NT and that Jesus is "Lord" in a different sense.
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BurnTheShips
This is what we profess in my church on Sunday. This I believe:
- We believe in one God,
- the Father, the Almighty
- maker of heaven and earth,
- of all that is seen and unseen.
- We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
- the only Son of God,
- eternally begotten of the Father,
- God from God, Light from Light,
- true God from true God,
- begotten, not made,
- one in Being with the Father.
- Through him all things were made.
- For us men and for our salvation
- he came down from heaven
- by the power of the Holy Spirit
- he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
- For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
- he suffered, died, and was buried.
- On the third day he rose again
- in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
- he ascended into heaven
- and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
- He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
- and his kingdom will have no end.
- We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
- who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
- With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
- He has spoken through the Prophets.
- We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
- We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
- We look for the resurrection of the dead,
- and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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