Sorry isaac just missed it so. adam and eve completely separate entities said to be one are the equvalent of Jesus and God being one. this does not compute because man is said to be one with God too therefore by your reasoning men are God too. Adam and Eve were 2 persons who operated as 1 flesh. The father and Son are 2 separate person's who operate as 1 God. Similar concept as far as operation as one entity. Of course Adam and Eve are a different nature than Father and Son. When the scriptures talk of YHWH being one God it is clearly not mentioning anyone else in that context of oneness so he is in fact One alone. Irrelevant point. The word one used here means united. There is another greek word for one than means one in a cardinal sense. when jesus does mention himself with his father... JOhn 10: 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." firstly there is no mention of being one God and also he is saying the father is greater than him and has given him these Greater- not better- Heb 1:4 Being made so much ((better)) than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Greater- positional, better is nature. I know the Father- as source of all decision and authority has a greater position than the Son- who is the perfect agent in carrying out his Father's decisions. You have just shown the perfect operation of the Trinity. If you thing greater denotes lesser is inferior then turn to Jh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Is Jesus saying his wroks are inferior to those of his disciples?
Is Jesus Jehovah?
by lostsheep82 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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leavingwt
Did anyone listen to the Walter Martin sermon I linked to? If so, can you provide specific rebuttal to his points? That would be most helpful to me.
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hamilcarr
I don't think so, and it's certainly not the only conclusion serious scholars of the NT have come to. See Pauline Christianity and Paul's letter to the Romans by John Ziesler for example, where he argues that YHWH is distinguished from Jesus in the NT and that Jesus is "Lord" in a different sense.
(Just for discussion's sake) I think it's strange you're using sources that discredit the assumed NT's unity (the existence of a separate pauline christianity) to sustain a JW stance. That's why I added 'if you believe the bible forms a unity"...
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sacolton
I listened to it, leavingwt. It was excellent!
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slimboyfat
I think it's strange you're using sources that discredit the assumed NT's unity
A scholarly approach that has a prior commitment to the NT's "unity" will also necessarily be approaching it from a faith position, and likely a Trinitarian one at that. Scholars these days, even if they do have a faith commitment, will generally put that to one side during the actual task of reading any given passage and aim to justify their interpretations soley on the basis of the context using accepted exegetical methods. Larry Hurtado is an Evangelical for example who argues for a very high Christology in the NT, yet you would not catch him in his academic work appealing to the religious notion that the Bible must agree with itself when he is dealing with any particular passage.
And there are attemps to read the Bible as being united in teaching a non-Trinitarian view of the Godhead. Jehovah's Witnesses today are foremost in that tradition. But there have been a few non-Witness scholars who are "believers" and who have adopted a non-Trinitarian view.
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reniaa
nice creed burn I could pick it up on a number of its unbiblcal expressions.
but lets do one solid fact God cannot die!
Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. (Habakkuk 1:12)
2 Are You not from eternity, Yahweh my God?
My Holy One, ( A ) You [ a ] will not die.
L ORD , You appointed them to execute judgment;
[my] Rock, ( B ) You destined them to punish [us].So if God cannot die how come Jesus did and still be said to be God?
lol I know the hypostatic union but reject them as unbiblical and circular reasoning.
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BurnTheShips
The NT is not an end-all. It was never intended as an instructional manual in Christianity or as a definitive catechism or creed that defines the Christian faith. It was not even decided what made up the NT until some 3 centuries after the final book was written.
BTS
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BurnTheShips
So if God cannot die how come Jesus did and still be said to be God?
lol I know the hypostatic union but reject them as unbiblical and circular reasoning.
I was going to say the hypostatic union. Jesus was fully God and fully Man. You would need to explain to me why you reject it.
BTS
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isaacaustin
nice creed burn I could pick it up on a number of its unbiblcal expressions. but lets do one solid fact God cannot die! Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. (Habakkuk 1:12) 2 Are You not from eternity, Yahweh my God? My Holy One, (A) You [a] will not die. LORD, You appointed them to execute judgment; [my] Rock, (B) You destined them to punish [us]. The Hab 1 is speaking to the Father- Jesus had not been revealed to man yet as his savior and deliverer. So if God cannot die how come Jesus did and still be said to be God? lol I know the hypostatic union but reject them as unbiblical and circular reasoning. You gave the anser in the first 5 words...but you summed it up that you reject is as the WT has.
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OBVES
It seems that many are not registering this clear statement Jesus made in John 20.17. God Yahweh is the Father and God the same way to Jesus as to the whole Israel. Read Obadiah 1.21 it is speaking about saviours coming to Mount Sion . In the Hebrew language all letters written were small and the word " god " had to be read in the context it appeared. In the English language we can easily to mark the differences in meaning . YAHWEH is GOD , Jesus is God , Moses as " God" , 144000 servants of Jesus Christ will be gods. In John 1.1 the word God for Jesus . And the Word was God and God was with GOD .Jesus is not GOD but God. The only true God is GOD and it is Yahweh - John 17.3 . Go read my posts on alt.bible ( google group ) where I gave also explanation of Hebrews 1.8 which I used before to refute Jehovahs Witness' view on Jesus and it turned out I was wrong but they were unable to give me right explanation of Hebrews 1.8 . Once again to have one God in three persons we would have to have in the Bible: 1/3 of God the Father ,1/3 of God the Son ,1/3 of God the Holy Spirit .It is found nowhere ! And on top of that read Isaiah 48.16: the Lord God and his spirit has sent me . This shows God Yahweh is not the Spirit either !It is a metaphor that God is Spirit ! God is not Spirit ; God has the Spirit ! Jesus was teaching in metaphors and parables - Matthew 13.11,34-35 ; John 4.24 cannot be taken literally ! The whole teaching about the Trinity is a total misunderstanding who is God . It should have no place in the true christian religion. It is a deadly heresy and a one of the best signs most churches are renegade , apostate ,false and shows how Jehovah's Witnesses can claim they are of the true christian faith .