Since when did the tables get turned and the believers in GW or GCC now demand that their theory be DISPROVEN?
It's called falsification and is essential to the scientific method, the best thing humans have to attain truth!
Global Warming Scam
by read good books 105 Replies latest social current
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hamilcarr
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besty
Any excuse to avoid a differing viewpoint, heh
No - not an excuse - we are familiar with the different viewpoint as you are familar with ours.
I have requested your provide primary source basic research from which you validate your position - so far the only premise you have suggested is that climate change due to human activity is a faith-based belief.
A useless premise to put forward if I may say so, given the amount of scientific papers available.
I have presented evidence here - the ball is in the denier court to counter.
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Seeker4
Besty, I appreciate your attempts to bring some balance into this thread. and Coffe Black, I appreciate your playing Devil's advocate here.
I'm glad Aniron was called on what I think is the most pathetic and silly response of several of the global climate change deniers on this site - "Why, we're having the coldest winter (or summer, etc) on record, which disproves global warming." As you clearly showed, local weather anomalies have nothing to do with global climate. Comments like Aniron's always scream out to me, "This person doesn't know what they're talking about!"
I admit I need to study this issue a lot more, but I've done enough research to know, as Coffee Black stated, that no one is denying that the global climate is changing. What is being questioned is whether this is just a normal occurence or is it being acerbated by humans and our pollution of the atmosphere. Two years ago I interviewed a scientist that I respect, Tom Wessels, the author of "The Myth of Progress," and asked him straight out about this controversy. I quote from my article:
When asked about the critics of climate change, those who say there is not enough data over a long enough period to know if we’re experiencing real climate change at least in part because of human activity, Wessels has no hesitation in his answer.
"There’s not one research climatologist who says that. Not one. You’ll hear that from the non-scientific community and you’ll hear that from people who have an ideological point of view, but the science (about global climate change) gets stronger all the time. There’s really not a debate in the scientific community at all that this is happening, or that humans are responsible for it. The debate is shifting to what is going to be the degree of change and what is the change going to look like regionally. We know that the change is going to be much more dramatic the higher in latitude you go. We’re already seeing that."
Since that interview, there have been petitions signed by literally hundreds of international scientists essentially stating what Tom told me in that quote. Yes, there is some controversy as to the human impact on this, but denial that something is happening and it is serious is becoming rarer.
From a non-scientists perspective, it's hard for me to imagine that we can continue to dump massive amounts of pollution into the environment and then deny that it has any effect. As a rationalist, that makes no sense to me. How long can you flush your toilet into the basement of your house and continue to deny that that's why the place stinks?
I know the businesses in my state take it seriously. There are about a half dozen major ski areas here in my part of Vermont, and they for damn sure know something is happening to the climate. Their success or failure depends on having enough snow, and they know they can no longer depend on that happening naturally, despite having two winters back to back with great natural snow.
S4
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Seeker4
Oh yes, just one other quick point:
Global climate change is the more accurate term, as what is happening produces overall warming in some areas, colder temperatures in others, turning some areas into rain deprieved deserts, others into wetter climates, etc. A climate that is getting colder actually is evidence of global climate change, not the opposite! That's what makes comments like Aniron's so pathetic.
S4
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coffee_black
Hi Seeker, I'm not playing devil's advocate... There is definitley climate chang, but I do not think we are causing global warming/climate change. I too have talked to scientists who think the gw movement has taken on a life of its own. I am not a wasteful person, so I take measures to make sure I'm not using more energy than is necessary. I think the gw movement has cultic potential... I think the climate changes we are experiencing are the result of naturally occurring cycles.
The following is from:
http://globalweathercycles.com/
Truth about Global Warming
New Research Indicates Climate Similar to the 1800s Within the Next 15 Years:
First Stage of Global Cooling Will Begin During 2008-2009
New research findings released in the peer reviewed book "Global Warming-- Global Cooling, Natural Cause Found," links seven different types of recurring gravitational cycles as the cause for all 2200 global warming events during the past half million years, including the earth's current warming cycle. It also links the cycles to a natural 50 percent increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide during the 10,000 year period leading up to the peak of all recurring 116,000 year mega global warming cycles. Meteorologist and climate researcher David Dilley of Global Weather Oscillations http://www.globalweathercycles.com, says the gravitational cycles act like a magnet by pulling the atmosphere's high pressure systems northward or southward by as much as 3 or 4 degrees of latitude from their normal seasonal positions. As the current gravitational cycle declines, global temperatures will begin cooling during 2008-09 with dramatic global cooling by 2023.
Ocala, FL (PRWEB) July 8, 2008 - New findings released in the peer reviewed book "Global Warming -- Global Cooling, Natural Cause Found", meteorologist and climate researcher David Dilley utilizes nearly a half million years of data linking long term gravitational cycles of the moon as the cause for the present global warming, rises in carbon dioxide levels, and for 2200 global warming cycles during the past half million years.
Mr. Dilley of Global Weather Oscillations has found seven different types of recurring gravitational cycles ranging from the very warm 460,000 year cycle down to a 230 year recurring global warming cycle. All of the gravitational cycles coincide nearly 100 percent with 2200 global warming events during the past half million years. This includes the earth's current warming cycle which began around the year 1900, and the first stage of global cooling that will begin during 2008 and 2009.
The gravitational cycles are called the Primary Forcing Mechanism for Climate (PFM), and act like a magnet by pulling the atmosphere's high pressure systems northward or southward by as much as 3 or 4 degrees of latitude from their normal seasonal positions, and thus causing long-term shifts in the location of atmospheric high pressure systems.
The shifts of nearly 3 degrees of latitude, or approximately 290 kilometers (180 miles) results in an overall change in the atmospheric circulation in such a manner to cause the climate to migrate northward during global warming cycles and allow some melting of high latitude snow and ice packs, and a rises in atmospheric carbon dioxide levels through a very complex natural feedback system.
This natural feedback allows carbon dioxide which is being stored and trapped in high latitude vegetation, soils, tundra and colder oceans for up to several hundred thousand years, to be released naturally back into the atmosphere during global warming events.
The natural climate shifts and associated natural rises in carbon dioxide occur approximately every 230 years as a recurring PFM gravitational cycle reaches its peak. Stronger global warmings occur with more powerful gravitational cycles every 920 years and 5000 years, with the greatest increase in global temperatures and carbon dioxide levels occurring during mega PFM gravitational cycles every 116,000 and 460,000 years.
Every 116,000 years, all but one of the seven different types of PFM gravitational cycles peak at the same time, with these simultaneous peaks causing a major shift in the earth's climate. These 116,000 year mega global warmings cycles have occurred four times during the past 360,000 years, all of which experienced a major rise in temperatures. The temperature rises were then followed by a natural rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide levels of about 50 percent during the 10,000 year period leading up to the peak of the cycle. This same scenario is occurring during the current 116,000 year PFM global warming cycle which is now peaking and also experiencing a carbon dioxide increase near 50 percent.
Every 460,000 years all seven PFM gravitational cycles peak at the same time. This has happened only twice during the past half million years. The first occurrence was 460,000 years ago, with this event causing major long term global warming with portions of the Antarctic becoming nearly void of ice. The next cycle is now occurring 460,000 years later and is again associated with major melting of the ice packs in the Polar Regions.
Research by Mr. Dilley shows a near 100 percent correlation between the PFM gravitational cycles to the beginning and ending of global warming cycles. Global warming cycles began right on time with each PFM cycle during the past half million years, as did the current warming which began 100 years ago, and it will end right on time as the current gravitational cycle begins its cyclical decline.
Global temperatures have cooled during the past 12 months. During 2008 and 2009 the first stage of global cooling will cool the world's temperatures to those observed during the years from the 1940s through the 1970s. By the year 2023 global climate will become similar to the colder temperatures experienced during the 1800s.
The release of the book "Global Warming- Global Cooling, Natural Cause Found" culminates 19 years of research clearly linking gravitational cycles as the cause for fluctuations within the earth's climate. The book is available as an electronic e-Book on the website http://www.globalweathercycles.com . The author David Dilley is a meteorologist and climate researcher with Global Weather Oscillations Inc. (GWO), former meteorologist with the National Weather Service, and co-host of the radio program "the Politically Incorrect Weather Guys" airing weekly on RadioEarNetwork.com, an internet streaming radio program.
Coffee
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Seeker4
CB,
There is a science writer at the NYTimes who has written a book or two on the subject, and he also hesitates to say to what extent GW is a human-created situation. That gives me pause in taking any sort of dogmatic stance here until I've done a lot more research.
But again, I struggle with my crude, but I think, rational metaphor: How long can you flush your toilet into the basement of your house and continue to deny that that's why the place stinks?
We may not be the only factor, but it's hard for me to believe that all the shit we pump into the atmosphere is having no effect.
S4
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coffee_black
Hi Seeker,
I don't like polution any more than the next guy....but I think we see the results more in the water supply and the air we breath. That's where I think our efforts need to be focused. Those are areas we can make a difference in. We cannot change the climate. The climate has been changing...in fact the earth itself has been changing since the beginning. It is not now, nor has it ever been constant. We need to learn to adapt to what the earth does.... not the other way around.
Coffee
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SixofNine
Or to be more blunt, greenhouse gasses warm the earth; only an imbecile would figure that more greenhouse gasses won't warm the earth more. Underpinning any discussion about climate change or global warming is that simple reality.
And yeah, there will be weather patterns that are extremes of winter due to global warming... but in the end, what we are talking about is human induced global warming. Happening because humans are adding massive amounts of greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere, on a scale never seen before on planet earth (or at least never seen w/o massive disruption to the existing ecosystem).
Yes, the earth's global climate is incredibly complex. But nothing about that complexity nullifies or falsifies the ghg effect. And as a side note, when these deniers scream "but it's so complex, scientist couldn't possibly predict or measure it...waaah!", note that that denier only knows the earths climate is complex because honest, genuine climate researchers did the scientific work of trying to falsify their own or their peer's climate theories and in doing so discovered complexities.
How many of these Darwin award winners (true, most won't kill themselves, they'll just kill the future for their children) don't even know the basic science?
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coffee_black
Or to be more blunt, greenhouse gasses warm the earth; only an imbecile would figure that more greenhouse gasses won't warm the earth more. Underpinning any discussion about climate change or global warming is that simple reality.
You are a primary example of why this whole movement is a cult. Anyone who disagrees or even questions it is an "imbecile". There is no possible discussion without swallowing it all...hook line and sinker. Any scientist who has a different viewpoint is a gw apostate and can't be trusted.
Coffee
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besty
New research findings released in the peer reviewed book "Global Warming -- Global Cooling, Natural Cause Found
Credible new research is not found in downloadable e-books. There is a well established scientific procedure for releasing new research.
David Dilley is a weatherman that has self-published an e-book. Also one of the credential-lite Inhofe 400, which in itself seems to be his main credential. Oh and yes - his book is peer-reviewed, perhaps by his fellow weathermen?
Nothing to see here. Move along please.