Addition To post on Disfellowshipping!

by Bill Parker 35 Replies latest jw friends

Bill Parker

I should have closed with the following comnment on my post.
When the clean-up is finally done by the Messiah through the Angels it will be fair and just. No one at that time will be able to argue what He does.They will not be able to say it is a cruel practice. It wasn't in the 1st century as I showed in the article. But it is now because no one on this earth has been appointed to do it.The effect that it has now on various individuals is proof of that. The broken heart's the broken spirit's the broken marriages, the destruction of the family unit. On and on it goes.
He will not be looking at the outward appearance of any man.
Isaiah 11: 3,4 tells how He will do it. "He shall not judge by the sight of His eye's neither decide by the hearing of His ear's; But with righteousness and justice shall He judge the poor and decide with fairness for the meek, the poor, and the down trodden of the earth" ...He imitates His Father Jehovah who told Samuel "Look not on his appearance,or at the height of his stature, for I have rejected him. For the LORD sees NOT AS MAN SEES; for man looks on the OUTWARD appearance, but the LORD LOOKS ON THE HEART." 1Samuel 16:7 When judging people today they can only view the outward appearance of things. None who have been judged by the Society or Elder arrangement have recived a fair and just hearing. Not one! That will all be straightened out in the finally. They will receive fair and just treatment. Do not believe for one moment that I think that wicked one's should be allowed to remain in the various congregations world-wide. I do not!
I do not believe though that it is any sinners, {and we are all that according to the Bible} position to remove them. To do so is pushing ahead presumptuously. What the Pope did or didn't do has no bearing on this discussion. None at all! When the time comes they will all answer for everything they did and failed to do, As will we all!
You Know

I pointed out in your previous post that you are in error in saying that 1st centruy Christians were inspired to read hearts and so that's why they disfellowshipped ones whom they judged to be wicked. They were not inspired, but they were authorized to judge those within the congregation using their God-given powers of reason in conjunction with Jehovah's revealed judicial decisions.
While it is true that no judicial committee can judge a person as to their eternal outcome, that was never the intent of disfellowshipping in the first place. Christ will indeed judge all things eventually, including his own congregation. But, in the meantime, before Christ permanently judges the organization and the world, Christ has unquestionably empowered his congregation to judge and disfellowship those who are judged to be unfit to continue to serve as ministers of Christ. Your reasoning that disfellowshipping is evil because it hurts people is childish. Paul used the expression on several occasions, referring to what we call disfellowshipping, as handing them over to Satan. That means that a person is put out of God's family. That is a tramatic experience. So, of course it is going to be painful for the one handed over to the Devil. Of course it is going to affect innocent family members. It obviously did in the 1st century and it does today. Paul said that the purpose of handing one over to Satan was for the destruction of the flesh so that the spirit might be saved in the day of judgment. So, by that statement the apostle indicated the purpose of disfellowshipping was for discipling the individual to discipline themselves in order to defeat the desires of the flesh. The goal is to save the individual so that they may get healing and restore their spirituality in order to stand in the final judgment.
The fact of the matter is, that the majority of persons who are disfellowshipped eventually are welcomed back into the family of God. So, disfellowshipping can have a positive effect provided that the individual accepts the discipline of Jehovah. So it is not something evil, but rather a strong measure taken to not only protect the congregation from corruption, but to save the individual. Of course apostates and ridiculers abhor any such disciplining from God, or anyone else for that matter, and so sooner or later they bring themselves under Jehovah's everlasting condemnation. By rejecting disfellowshipping as an arrangment of God you are actually defying Jehovah's attempts to reclaim and restore those whom he wants as his worshippers.
What you are posting regarding disfellowshipping is not the truth. You are unwittingly working in harmony with the demons to ensure that those handed over to Satan stay there. That is not what Jehovah wills. As Paul wrote to Timothy: "As God may give them repentance leading to an accurate knowledge of truth, and that they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one." / You Know
D wiltshire

Jesus never disfellowshipped anyone.
His advice in Matt.18 was for jews under law. And was not even close the the shunning that goes on in high control groups like JWs.
He said nothing about a Judicial committee to disfellowship.
He only said let him be just as a tax collector or man of the nations to you(SINGULAR for you).
To better understand what Jesus meant we need to see how Jesus treated tax collectors and men of the nations. Jesus did not shun these people in fact he eat and talked with them. Tax collectors, and harlots, regularly associated with him and he welcomed them.
Matthew 13 Illustration of the Wheat and weeds.
Jesus says NOT to separate them by human means but to let the ANGELS do so at the very conclusion of this system.
Men are not following Jesus advice and are accidentally uprooting the wheat.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
hillary_step

YK,
The issue is not whether the process of disfellowshipping is scriptual. An arrangment for 'shunning' was clearly alluded too by Paul in an issue that deveveloped in 1 Corinthians 5:5.
The point is whether disfellowshipping as practiced by WTS bears any resemblance to the suggestions made by Paul as to how to deal with discipling those who fail their calling.
I believe that the WTS has gone beyond scripture and instituted an arrangement that is offensive to Christ. They have done this on the basis that they are the FDS and have the right to do so. I question this premise also.
The WTS arrangment for shunning bears very close resemblance to those originally instituted by the Quakers and other 'new age' religions of the C18th. They did not invent the system but cannabalised it from the pieces torn away from other faiths.
So the question is not, is shunning scriptual, as it surely is. It is, is the WTS guilty of 'adding words' to the scriptures to suit their own ends?
That the arrangment is continually being adjusted, shows that even they are aware that it is not as simple an issue as you would have us believe.
HS
roybatty

I must have missed the part where Paul instructs the congregation overseers to anounce that an individual has been df'd and that this individual would have to later meet with a jc and seek their approval in order to be considered in good standing.
Gosh, could it be that Paul had in mind the freedom that comes with having a Christian conscience and that as individuals we could decide for ourselves? Yes Paul gave direction but didn't set up a new set of rules for his brothers and sister to adhere to. Not that I claim to be the shining example of what it means to be a Christian but if you can't see this point, then you miss the whole reason of what it means to be a follower of Christ.
You Know

Jesus never disfellowshipped anyone.
Wrong! On the night of the last Passover Jesus dismissed the apostate Judas. In effect, Jesus judged Judas and Christ did not allow him to fellowship with him or his apostles on the very special occasion.
His advice in Matt.18 was for jews under law. And was not even close the the shunning that goes on in high control groups like JWs.
Wrong again! Jesus instructed his Jewish disciples to treat unrepentant offenders as if they were people of the nations and tax collectors. Even though Jesus did not practice such prejudices, his Jewish listeners at the time would have understood his words to mean that they were to shun those brothers who did not listen to the reproof of the congregation, which was of course represented by the apostles and older men who served as judges in behalf of the congregation.
He said nothing about a Judicial committee to disfellowship.
So what? Paul was an apostle of Christ and spoke for Jesus and he indicated that the congregations should have qualified men to serve as judges in these matters.
Matthew 13 Illustration of the Wheat and weeds. Jesus says NOT to separate them by human means but to let the ANGELS do so at the very conclusion of this system.
Wrong III! Jesus' parable had nothing to do with shunning. It was an illustration to show how Christ will ultimately judge between those who are his disciples and those who pretend to be. That judgment will extent far beyong the confines of the congregation to include the weed-like individuals who Satan has misled into imagining that they are going to heaven.
Three strikes and you are out! lol / You Know
Bill Parker

You Know:
Might it possibly be that you are the one Satan has in his clutches?
I present all of my articles not using my own human wisdom. Rather I direct attention to chapter and verse. I allow the Bible to speak for me. You profess to being Christian, then sit down and use your Bible and present your arguement citing as I have Chapter and verse. A logical coherent line of scriptural reasoning is what I expect from someone who professes to bear Jehovah's name. I have listened to only what you have been taught by the Society. I cannot see a scriptural line of reasoning that cannot be refuted in any of your writings. I am able to, given time tear your reasonings to pieces. And I can do that using the Bible. Establish everything that you say at the "mouth of two or three witnesses" 2Corinthians 13:1 Do not just parrot everything that the Society has taught you. Put on your own spiritual thinking cap and use that for a change.By the way one who is as insulting as you are could never be acceptable to Jehovah.That is self deception if you believe otherwise.
You Know

Hillary's Mis-Step:
The issue is not whether the process of disfellowshipping is scriptual. An arrangment for 'shunning' was clearly alluded too by Paul in an issue that deveveloped in 1 Corinthians 5:5.
Apostates are clearly not in agreement then, because the intent of the original poster was to prove that disfellowshipping is not Scriptural.
The point is whether disfellowshipping as practiced by WTS bears any resemblance to the suggestions made by Paul as to how to deal with discipling those who fail their calling.
The intent of disfellowshipping then and now is to keep corrupting influences out of the congregations and hopefully bring the offender to his senses so as to accept discipline. It works, that's the main thing.
I believe that the WTS has gone beyond scripture and instituted an arrangement that is offensive to Christ. They have done this on the basis that they are the FDS and have the right to do so. I question this premise also.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. If Christ is offended then I am sure he has the means to correct his servants. That should pose no problem for him at all.
That the arrangment is continually being adjusted, shows that even they are aware that it is not as simple an issue as you would have us believe.
No one said it was a perfect system. As long as you have imperfect men judging other imperfect men there are going to be problems. But, for now, it serves the purpose. / You Know
roybatty

You Know,
I wish I had the time to address your post piece by piece but I don't. However, I couldn't go without pointing this out. You said:
>>Wrong! On the night of the last Passover Jesus dismissed the apostate Judas. In effect, Jesus judged Judas and Christ did not allow him to fellowship with him or his apostles on the very special occasion.<<
Even with a man who commited the worst possible sin, how did Jesus later address him? After Judas kissed him he said at Matt. 26:50
Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.
You Know

Bill Parker
Might it possibly be that you are the one Satan has in his clutches?
Nope. I don't think so. He used to have me but not no more.
I present all of my articles not using my own human wisdom. Rather I direct attention to chapter and verse. I allow the Bible to speak for me.
That's a laugh. The Devil can quote Scripture. In fact, he even reasoned from the Scripture with Christ in order to entrap him. I am not impressed by your use of Scripture. Peter pointed out how the untaught and the unsteady twist the Scripture to their own destruction. So it is not at all unusual that you would cite chapter and verse in an attempt to put something over on the unsuspecting mind.
A logical coherent line of scriptural reasoning is what I expect from someone who professes to bear Jehovah's name.
I used the Scriptures and showed that you are wrong. Apparently you have no rebuttal except to pretend that I didn't have a sensible reply. That too is typical of the sort of stuff apostates try to run on us.
I am able to, given time tear your reasonings to pieces. And I can do that using the Bible.
Go for it man. I will welcome your attempt to do so. Take your time and put something together for me.
Do not just parrot everything that the Society has taught you. Put on your own spiritual thinking cap and use that for a change.
Can you show in my post where I have parroted the Watchtower? I have only used reasoning from the Scriptures.(Not the book) What irratates you, evidently, is that I have defended the Watchtower's position. That is, however, not the same as parroting the Watchtower. Let's face it: You cannot deal with my line of reasoning because it is something that you have not encountered before in the pages of the Watchtower. I think you are in a little over your head here a it scares and angers you. / You Know

Addition To post on Disfellowshipping!

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