To Larc: ON ECONOMIC STUFF

by You Know 64 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  stocwach

  You Know,

  Bottom Line,

  You have entrusted your faith in the doctrine revealed by the "faithful and discreet slave", which is the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society.

  You did not practice this doctrine before becoming a JW and then discover an organization called the WTBS that shared the same doctrine as you.

  Bottom line then, you are basing your beliefs on a false prophet, which the WTBS has been proven guilty of numerous times as defined in the Bible. To deny it is either ignorance or wonton disregard for the Bible's definition of false prophet.

  Therefore, your beliefs are a moot point, and if I might be redundant, irrelevant.
• 

  You Know

  Refiner's Fired:

  Uncle Lyndon said that the S11 bombing of the World Trade Centre was carried out by a faction within the US security forces? Do you believe that is so?

  What are you doing listening to raving cult lunatics anyway? LOL Really, I have no way of knowing if that's true. But, I do know that powerful forces within the Anglo-American ruling establishment use terrorists in their assault on the nation state system. Even the mainstream media acknowledged that the Mujihadeen was created by British and American intelligence. They just didn't go on to say that they the Mujihadeen is still controled by that apparatus. As a matter of fact, it is also well documented that London is home to numerous terrorist groups and individuals evidently because that's where they get their marching orders. That's how the Devil's world works. Things are never as they are made to appear. It is full of deception and at some point all of you are going to be face-to-face with a fierce-eyed reality that no amount of ridicule will be able to dispel. / You Know
• 

  You Know

  Stocwach:

  Bottom line then, you are basing your beliefs on a false prophet, which the WTBS has been proven guilty of numerous times as defined in the Bible. To deny it is either ignorance or wonton disregard for the Bible's definition of false prophet.

  I have proven many times on this board and elsewhere, that that is false reasoning. The charge of "false prophet" brought against the Watchtower is based upon the Law of Moses. Typically, our opposers over the years have criticized us for using the Old Testament to establish our doctrine and not the New. Now, using that same criteria, there is nothing in the New Testament that would lead a reasoning person to the conclusion that the Watchtower is a false prophet. Using the same reasoning that apostates have fallen for, we would also have to say that the apostles were false prophets because they intitially believed that Jesus' kingdom was going to "instantly display itself." They were wrong. And later, after that false notion was cleared up, they continued to labor under the misunderstanding that the apostle John would not die before Christ returned. That went on for some years until John set things straight when he wrote his gospel at the end of the apostolic era. Basically, in the New Testament, at 2 Peter the 2nd chapter and in the letter of Jude, false prophets are identified for the Christian. The profile perfectly fits apostate Jehovah's Witnesses not the Watchtower. / You Know
• 

  larc

  You Know,

  Other people want to discuss other issues with you, e.g., Armageddon and LaRouch's character. If you want to deal with this, go ahead and we can get back to economics later. In the mean time, if anyone else has data, facts, information supporting either You Know's position or mine on the subject of economics, it would be appreciated.
• 

  You Know

  Okay, back to the subject at hand here.

  Take for example your list of % of production increase: Here's a web site on the steel industry that discusses this very thing. >>> http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/iron_&_steel/stat/

  They point out how the number of man hours required to make a ton of steel have basically halfed in the last 20 years. Thats much greater thanthe 15% figure that you posted. They cite that the reason is technologic improvements and smaller mills. But, toward the bottom of that report that note that tonnage per person has fallen by 20%. The reasons they give though, such as better alloys and lighter weight cars is not the whole story. While that may be true, still, as I have pointed out the infrastrucure of the physical economy has been sorely neglected to the point that the system is no longer able to sustain itself. So, the figures are interesting, but they can be used in differnet ways that are misleading rather than informative. The same thing could be pointed out about all the other sectors you used. For example you mention oil and mining. Check out the rig count numbers. It is well known that it is becoming increasingly less profitable to produce oil. It doesn't matter if it can be done more effieciently than 25 years ago. If it's not profitable than it's a dead industry. Same thing with mining. Silver and gold mines around the world are operating at a loss. it is no longer profitable to mine gold. The reason for this is because of the financial shenanigans of the speculators. More Later / You Know
• 

  larc

  You Know,

  You stated that the productivity of a product with the same density (steel) has doubled in the last 30 years. This value fits with the many examples I gave on previous posts on another thread. You stated that tonnage has gone down per worker and the reason given was the use of lighter alloys. You said that there were other (bad) reasons to explain this, but you didn't say what they were. You made reference to the infrastructure. What aspect of the infrastructure would account for this decline, and how much of the decline would it account for other than the lighter alloy factor.

  Now regarding gold, it seems to me that the reason for it being unprofitable to mine, is because of low demand. There is low demand because of a strong dollar and relatively low inflation. If the dollar depreciates rapidly as you predict and inflation takes off, then the price of gold will rise rapidly and it will be profitable to mine again. It seems to me that if speculators were manipulating the gold market, then the market would be volotile (sp) as the speculators drove the price up and down. The gold market has been flat for many years, so I see no signs of tampering in this market. The last such speculation that I recall was by the Hunt brothers in the silver market back around 1980.
• 

  You Know

  You stated that tonnage has gone down per worker and the reason given was the use of lighter alloys.

  No, you misunderstood. Click on the link and scroll down to the very bottom of the article. They were talking about tonnage of steel per consumer, not per worker. In other words they took the total amount of steel produced divided by people in the nation who use steel products. They took in to account that steel is a consumer product, to the tune that back in the 70's each person in the U.S. consumed about 1/2 ton of steel. Now that figure is down to about 800 lbs per person. Now, of course, we don't really consume steel in the way we typically think of consumer products. But, the whole system is built with steel. So it is a very accurate guage of the strength of the phyical economy. That's because steel is used in the office buildings and factories that we work in. It's used in the cars we drive. It is used in oil pruduction and transport. is is the basis for the entire railroad and electric grid. So the calculation of tonnage per person is very similar to LaRouche's formula in measuring production in terms of per household per square kilometer. What the figures verify is that the system has been operating at a loss. Less steel used in construction is not an improvement. Less steel in cars makes them less safe. Less replacement steel for railroads and bridges and dams is not an increase in productivity. Frequently when trains derail it is because the tracks are in disrepair. It is merely cost cutting that will eventually result in a failure of the structure. The share holders don't want to spend the money on infrastructure is the bottom line. Taken as a whole, and in connection with the civil engineer's report I linked to on my leading post on this thread, the reason steel production per person is down is because the parasitic financial system is milking the underlying economy dry. It is evident in many ways, steel production is just aspect.

  Now regarding gold, it seems to me that the reason for it being unprofitable to mine, is because of low demand. There is low demand because of a strong dollar and relatively low inflation.

  Actually, demand for gold and silver are relatively constant. Both metals have numerous industrial applications. The reason the price of gold is below the break even point for the miners is because the central bankers have been dumping tons of gold on the market in order to artifically keep the dollar strong. Some suspect that even the gold in Fort Knox has been looted and dumped on the market. Every time there is a price rise the bankers sell into the rally to supress the price. Word is that if the price goes above $300 an onuce and stays there for any length of time that Goldman Sachs and some other big boys will go out of business and blow the system out. There is presently an ongoing law suit to stop the market rigging. But it is a classic demonstration of how the financial system is destroying the physical economy.

  / You Know
• 

  larc

  You Know,

  Your figures indicate that steel usage per capita is down 20%. You provide some possible reasons. I will only address one, since I would have to do some research on much of what you have written. Regarding the use of steel in cars, the use of steel is down as auto makers have used lighter materials, such as plastic to increase energy efficiency. This has not made cars less safe. On another thread, I pointed out that there has been a decline in deaths and injuries on the highways over the last 30 years. This has been due in part to a combination of factors in automobiles such as, mandatory seat belts, air bags, anti-lock brakes, and collapsable front end bumpers. None of these features existed in 1960.

  While the weight reduction in cars has been substantial leading to higher fuel efficiency, I can not at this time give information as to the amount of the 20% steel reduction is due to this factor. Of course, there are other products where plastics and size reduction has reduced the use of steel. For example, a modern furnace is less that half the size of a furnace made 40 years ago, so for this product less than half the amount of steel is needed. An example regarding plastics. In 1960, typewriters were made entirely of metal. Much of the keyboard, computure moniter, printer, scanner, and tower are made of plastic.

  Another product that has reduced the use of steel are composite materials that contain no metal. These have been used in the past, primarily in airplane and aerospace applications. As the costs are reduced more consumer applications will result. These materials have the advantage of being at least as strong as steel and they are not subject to corrosian. Research is going on right now, to use composites to make truck beds.

  Regarding the gold issue, I would have to further read before I could comment.
  When you used the term 'speculator", I thought you referring to people who were buying and selling gold for a profit in a fluctuating market.

  I still think we are at the same impasse. I see no evidence at productivity is down. In fact, productivity is up dramaticly. I agree with you that our infrastructure needs work, but I don't see it collapsing any time soon.
• 

  You Know

  I still think we are at the same impasse. I see no evidence at productivity is down. In fact, productivity is up dramaticly. I agree with you that our infrastructure needs work, but I don't see it collapsing any time soon.

  I had no illusion that there would somehow be a meeting of the minds on this. But, as regards the infrastructure collapsing, that's not going to happen. What is going to happen, and indeed what is happening presently, is that the physical economy is collapsing under the weight of speculation and debt and can no longer service the debt imposed upon it. Each day more companies announce thousands more lay-offs and issue profit warnings and some file for bankruptcy. While we keep hearing about how recovery is just around the corner, it must be remembered that these are the same clowns that were saying a year ago that there would be no recession. And before that they were only talking about how high the stock market was going to go. Each month, on average, the FED lowers interest rates in order to prop up the stock market. None of the old tricks appear to be working any more. The global financial system now appears to be locked in an accelerating death-spiral and rapidly reaching the point of terminal velocity. The system is finished. /You Know
• 

  dubla

  The system is finished.

  if i had a dollar for every time........

  i wonder why the repetition is constantly neccesary with yk and his blubbering. does it drive home some grand point by ending every post with "youre doomed"?.......is it simply mocking the "apostates"?......did jesus get satisfaction out of mocking his opposers? are mocking and taunting "christian" qualities? hmmmmm.

  aa