Atheists/Theists: What is the best argument FOR theism (a God's existence) you have heard?

by Spook 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Gladring

  Several times this week I find myself reminded of a self-confessed, self brainwashed JW who I used to have deep conversations with. This elder was a deep thinker/feeler and had tied himself up in so many knowts to maintain his JW identity.

  Several times, when the rubbish was brushed aside, at the bottom of his faith was a story like ....

  ..... If I was God, I would write the Bible in such a clever way that only those of the right heart condition could read and understand it.

  He would quote "God's word is alive and exerts power ... dividing soul and spirit ..." etc.

  He was a friend, and it's sad that he has himself so tied up. I do miss those kind of discussions, this board helps fill some of that need. "By iron, iron itself is sharpened". That's part of why I enjoy following these threads.
• 

  inkling

  had tied himself up in so many knowts to maintain his JW identity.

  I don't know if this is a typo or a new word, but either way it's awesome.

  Know + Knots = Knowts

  i.e., things that we just "know", or pretend to know, and that are in fact
  enslaving us in their bindings.

  [inkling]
• 

  Gladring

  knowt to self... ;)
• 

  Alpaca

  First I will say that on the scale of 0 (no doubt about God's existence) and 100 (complete doubt in God's existence) I am at about 98.5. I cannot go all the way to 100 because the atheist is just as dogmatic as the believer.

  Some of the new things being discovered in physics and astrophysics that cannot be explained with the knowledge base we currently have seem to suggest that there are other dimensions beyond our ken. What makes it bizarre is that the effects of the events that happen in those dimensions can be observed in the dimensions we know and can observe.

  For example, one of the things all of us have come to accept as "immutable fact" is that nothing in the universe travels faster than speed of light. Now, astrophysicists have discovered that there are action-reaction events that can span significant distances of the universe, even across the entire known universe. How does that happen?

  And there are lots of other similar discoveries that, at the very least, give pause to the assumption that we can know one way or the other whether God exists.

  Science marched forward at an astonishing rate since the 17th Century with one phenomenon (often attributed to God) after another being stripped of the mystery that shrouded it from the beginning of human existence. Now, we have entered a period when the answers are not coming so easily or quickly.

  So, it is the complexity of the universe and the unknown dimensions of space and time that make the belief in God (who must have no limitations imposed by the dimensions we know), at least, reasonable. On the other hand, humans have plenty of experience with scienctific explanations eventually triumphing over supernatural explantions, that persisted from time immemorial, for observable phenomena. Therefore, it would be premature to jump to any conclusions about "proof" for God's existence.

  One thing is pretty clear...if God does exist the unmistakeable evidence is not being volunteered.
• 

  DT

  It depends on how you define God.

  I don't know of any good argument for a God who always existed in his present complex form. It's totally nonsensical, at least in our realm of reality. (I guess you could argue for a separate reality where the rules are different, but that isn't much of an argument.)

  It's possible that a godlike creature could have evolved and that he might have intervened in some way in the events that led to us. Of course, he might be dead now or else unaware of our existence, so it wouldn't be too surprising if evidence of this is hard to find. A godlike creature is less likely than our more modest form of life, but if he intervened repeatedly in different worlds or universes, it could skew the odds somewhat so that any life form that has existed would be more likely to result from his intervention, rather than being part of his own evolutionary history or a line of descent unrelated to him.
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Gladring,

  It is late and I have just come back from a wedding party so I should really postpone answering until tomorrow but anyhow, here goes :)

  To define faith, I think Hebrews 11:1 is perfect Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

  The more sure you are of the unseen i.e. God, His Kingdom, the spiritual realm etc. then the more faith you have.

  From your quotes from the book of Hebrews, may I take it that your definition of faith is "to believe something with no evidence"?

  With respect, this definition is wrong and it is a common mistake. My belief and what I see in practice is that there is plenty of evidence for God, the supernatural, the spiritual, life after death etc. As Jesus said, John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

  You won't find anything supernatural in the kingdom halls because they have no faith, either in Jesus, who He is or His power. However, get yourself to any meeting with Spirit filled, born again believers and you will see the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in evidence-speaking in tongues, real prophecy, healing etc.

  This would appear to make faith somewhat immune from criticism or analysis. In practice though, believers often cite forms of evidence to support their belief. You mention some of these in your post. You say "He speaks and shows His presence through various ways, His Holy Spirit, creation, the bible, His people, circumstances and God-incidences..." These certainly are forms of evidence, and are open to review and criticism. Without a holy book, or personal intuition/feeling, what do you base your beliefs on?

  The evidence itself, I agree. For example, I have a friend who professes to be an atheist. He says God does not exist, "just look through a telescope and see". However, I say if I look through the telescope I see Him. Paul puts it perfectly in this respect

  Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

  There must be a starting point for faith, something to hang your hat on. No matter how thin, there must be something which appears reasonable to start from. To quote from Romans 10-

  However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?

  and...

  So faith follows the thing heard. In turn the thing heard is through the word about Christ.

  Jesus is THE place to hang your hat on. Believe in Him and who He is and the rest falls into place. JWs believe He is the angel Michael and He was raised from the dead as a ghost, so nothing falls into place.

  Certainly this word, or testimony, about Christ is a form of evidence - evidence which we may examine and judge as to trustworthiness and authority.

  Well once again, it takes faith. I believe Jesus lived around 2000 years ago, no doubt a historical fact but by faith I say He was the Son Of God, died on a cross for my sin, was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit in a physical body and I am now born again-i.e. spiritually alive as well as physically alive.

  You also mention the "big questions". Some of those you mention science has answered, or is in the process of answering. Some may never be answered. What makes you think that belief, unsupported by evidence, will answer these questions? Without evidence, all you have is your opinion (which is sometimes dressed in holy garb, and called "faith").

  My thoughts are this, I think historically, science told us it was scientific fact the earth was flat and the sun went round the earth. Newton was once "right" but then "got it wrong a bit", then Einstein in similar fashion etc. I think there are current scientific "absolutes" that are about as solid as a flat earth-carbon dating could well be one. The only person who has got it all sussed is God Himself. Want any answers then ask Him :)

  I look forward to hearing your reply.

  You too-nice discussion :)

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Gladring

  Chalam, I find the definition of faith at Heb 11:1 problematical.

  You acknowledge that your faith is built upon evidence. The Heb definition though says that faith is "being... certain of what we do not see." "Seeing" certainly is a form of evidence. You believe that you "see" God when looking at his creation. If belief or faith is simply a matter of looking at the evidence and reaching the obvious conclusion, then what exactly were the ancients of Heb 11 being praised for? Why are there so many conflicting truth claims of different faiths in the world?

  As a Christian, you believe that the only way to attain salvation is through Christ. Do you understand that all other religions feel that they too have the very same reasons for believing that they do, that their claims are equally valid?

  I understand that you feel that you have strong reasons for believing as you do, and I have no desire to undermine your beliefs. Do you acknowledge, though, that your reasons may not be convincing to other people? Your personal experience may convince you, but carries little weight with me. Speaking in tongues and faith healing may be easily faked and used to relieve the unsuspecting of their cash (I am not saying that is the case in your experience, just that it does happen). The Bible itself does not stand up to close examination. Why choose one book or tradition over another? Muslims believe that the Quran is the innerrant word of God - why not believe them?

  Romans 1 says that the unbeliever is inexcusable, but do you not see that I have evidence to support my beliefs? Is it unreasonable to acknowledge and accept another person's point of view?

  You mention that science changes its views over time (I'm not sure that the flat earth wasn't a religious claim, but it's not important right now). This is one of science's strong points - it is open to correction, and is self correcting. Religion is not open to correction. At times religion has been forced to adjust some of its claims about the world/universe by the forward momentum and increased understanding of the universe brought to us by science.

  There are some spiritual teachings in many religions, but these are almost always lost beneath layers of dogma.
• 

  Borgia

  Hi Gladring, I concur with you here. chapter 11 in and of itself is quite contradictory. On of the more outstanding example of faith the writer of Hebrew touches on briefly is Gideon. I single him out here since he did something JW's are told not to: He tested God 3 times before being a man of faith. I would say that is almost as close to modern science as you can get with this.

  Yet, historically, we have only judges to go with. All else is hidden in mist. It could be an elaborate forgery or not. No way of knowing. The only thing I find interesting here is that since Gideons test.......it's been very silent.......maybe the triple test scared him of. But I do see the need for this entity called God to make some new efforts here.

  If he doens't than there are a few options here:

  1) he's not able to

  2) he doesn't want to

  3) he doens't exist.

  Well, actually the only arguement that would save a theist I guess would be to put the word yet behind point one or two.

  Cheers

  Borgia
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Gladring,

  OK here goes :)

  Chalam, I find the definition of faith at Heb 11:1 problematical.

  You acknowledge that your faith is built upon evidence. The Heb definition though says that faith is "being... certain of what we do not see." "Seeing" certainly is a form of evidence. You believe that you "see" God when looking at his creation. If belief or faith is simply a matter of looking at the evidence and reaching the obvious conclusion, then what exactly were the ancients of Heb 11 being praised for?

  I believe this, the evidence does point to something-the unseen-but one has to have faith to believe what is unseen exists! Here are some verses which should explain faith some more.

  Romans 8:24

  24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

  2 Corinthians 4:18

  18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

  2 Corinthians 5:7

  7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.

  Why are there so many conflicting truth claims of different faiths in the world?

  There is an unseen enemy at work. See here (verse 15 speaks of the GB and others).

  2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (New International Version)

  13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

  Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)

  12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

  As a Christian, you believe that the only way to attain salvation is through Christ. Do you understand that all other religions feel that they too have the very same reasons for believing that they do, that their claims are equally valid?

  Of course, see above! The main question is is Jesus right or a liar/misguided?

  John 14:6 (New International Version)

  6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

  If He is what He says then we better check out what He has to say and apply it to our lives. If not, throw away you bibles and do something else.

  I understand that you feel that you have strong reasons for believing as you do, and I have no desire to undermine your beliefs. Do you acknowledge, though, that your reasons may not be convincing to other people?

  Of course, they are all around! Anyhow, I cannot convince them. I must say I have tried but the job rests with the Holy Spirit. I just try and follow His prompt.

  John 15:5 (New International Version)

  5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

  1 Thessalonians 1:4-6 (New International Version)

  4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

  Your personal experience may convince you, but carries little weight with me. Speaking in tongues and faith healing may be easily faked and used to relieve the unsuspecting of their cash (I am not saying that is the case in your experience, just that it does happen). The Bible itself does not stand up to close examination. Why choose one book or tradition over another? Muslims believe that the Quran is the innerrant word of God - why not believe them?

  Have you been to a church where the gifts of the Spirit are in action? If not, I would encourage you hold your judgement until you have experienced them first hand. There is nothing like personal prophetic words (God speaking directly to you with specific things regarding your life), experience His healing first hand or just the touch of His Holy Spirit. I would not seek the gifts only, but the One who gives them. On speaking in tongues I am afraid I disagree strongly. I do not exercise the gift but would happily. My wife does and I can tell you it is something that I could not fake even if I tried-it just arrived one day for her and she speaks fluently in the heavenly language. Of course, that sounds totally crazy but then it is out of this world.

  On the Quran, I haven't read much, mainly the verses regarding Jesus. The Quran says He was only a prophet, like all the other prophets. That is at odds with what Jesus said about Himself in the bible, i.e. He is the Son Of God. That is blasphemy to Muslims, and was to the Jews also. In one sense it is also blasphemy to JWs as they say Jesus is the angel Michael. Also to Mormons who say He is Lucifer's brother (i.e. also an angel). Jesus is the stumbling block all round

  Corinthians 1:22-24 (New International Version)

  22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

  So the options are either Muslims are right, JWs are right, the Mormons are right, the Rastafari are right etc. or else we are all wrong? One thing is sure, we cannot be all be right as we contradict on core beliefs, first and foremost Jesus.

  Romans 1 says that the unbeliever is inexcusable, but do you not see that I have evidence to support my beliefs? Is it unreasonable to acknowledge and accept another person's point of view?

  Well we have to weight the evidence and cast our vote. The judge will decide, whether that be God (if you believe in one) or just the test of time ;)

  You mention that science changes its views over time (I'm not sure that the flat earth wasn't a religious claim, but it's not important right now). This is one of science's strong points - it is open to correction, and is self correcting. Religion is not open to correction. At times religion has been forced to adjust some of its claims about the world/universe by the forward momentum and increased understanding of the universe brought to us by science.

  The important thing about science changing its view it that what it said was once fact is now falsehood. I don't know about religion too much! I am not religious, that is pretty much a dirty word where I worship and to many similar minded Spirit filled Christians. In fact, you can count on two hands how many times the word "religion" is used in the bible. Religion brings to mind negative things, rituals, rites, traditions of men etc. Now faith is mentioned hundreds of times in the bible and that is what God likes so I peruse that. I am sure many here will disagree but then most have come from a heavy religious experience-i.e. a cult.

  With regard to correction, then God cannot be corrected or else He wouldn't be God! To make a mistake or not know something cannot be an attribute of God. Man, however, is learning every day of his life so will make mistakes.

  There are some spiritual teachings in many religions, but these are almost always lost beneath layers of dogma.

  Dogma is good for God, in fact it is inherent-He cannot change (immutability).

  Malachi 3:6 (New International Version)

  6 "I the LORD do not change.

  Hebrews 13:8 (New International Version)

  8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

  If God kept changing His mind then how could we know where we stand with Him? What is right? What is true? What is good?

  Dogma in people is good sometimes (if they are right or standing up for good) or bad other times (if they are foolish, wrong or evil). I believe wisdom comes from God which explains this condition.

  Anyhow, hope this helps explain some things?

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Spook

  Well, thanks for the thoughts so far. Here's another general observation:

  Theistic arguments appear superficially stronger when they begin from a hypothetical beginning of the universe. I've found my strongest arguments begin in the present - where absolutely nothing requires any form of supernatural explanation - and proceed to the past at which point one dispenses with evidence and turns to arguments.

  Some other challenging theistic arguments are metaphysics based. In other words "how can you account for the existence of numbers, redness, etc." These are usually a bit silly.

  I think the strongest arguments against JW and strict Christian theists is the logical impossibility of a God who can *know* the future in a universe in which people have *free will*. That's why I say I'm a positive atheist in the sense I KNOW this God does not exist...some others I just see no evidence for. (Called FANG, the free-will argument for the non-existence of God).