Hi Spook,
The issue of the scope of our "free will" is nicely covered by Mark Driscoll in this video-check it out and see what you think.
All the best,
Stephen
Atheists/Theists: What is the best argument FOR theism (a God's existence) you have heard?
by Spook 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Elsewhere
Kirk Cameron and his Bananas. (The most homo-erotic proof for god's existence )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4
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Gladring
Thanks Elsewhere, that really cheered me up.
Chalam - I don't think I can go anywhere here without a working definition of faith that we can both agree on.
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Farkel
:sacrificial,
:Well you can't prove he doesn't exist with 100% certianty.
No one can disprove a negative assertion. Everyone who has even studied a smidgeon of logic knows that. That is preciesely why true believers always use that logically fallacy when they run out of real arguments.
The classic dub argument in that vein is, "but what if we are RIGHT?" That allows them to escape the task of proving that they are right, which is a great cop out for lazy asses like dubs.
This argument could not even be settled by great philosophers and thinkers like Emmanual Kant. Why not just settle this argument by agreeing that everything in the human realm is based upon perception? Their "reality" is based upon their perception. "Shit" is a swearword, not because the word "shit" is essentially a bad word, but only because so many people perceive it to be such. The word "shit" couldn't give a shit that it might be a good word or a bad word, it is only people's perception that make it what it is.
If one's perception is that there is a God who will kill 6 billion people in the most horrible way possible, then for them their IS such a God. If one's perception is that God doesn't exist, then for them God doesn't exist.
Either way, from all we know and experience in all of human history spanning roughly a million years, God simply does not give a shit about humans alive on earth, so why worry about it?
Farkel
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inkling
(The most homo-erotic proof for god's existence)
Ahem...
"When you pull the tab, the contents don't squirt in your face"
May I humbly suggest, Mr. Cameron, that you are doing it wrong?
[inkling]
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Chalam
Hi Gladring,
I think the biblical definition is cool but here is a secular one which is perfect.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
faith
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust Yes, the is no proof for God (but evidence now and proof comes later). Yes, my complete trust is in Jesus. All the best, Stephen -
Gladring
Chalam, may I remind you:
Me: From your quotes from the book of Hebrews, may I take it that your definition of faith is "to believe something with no evidence"?
You: With respect, this definition is wrong and it is a common mistake.
Proof according to the self same www.merriam-webster.com thesaurus-
Proof: something presented in support of the truth or accuracy of a claim.
Synonyms attestation, confirmation, corroboration, documentation,evidence, substantiation, testament, testimony, validation, witness
If you cannot be consistent in your definitions and use of language I see no point in continuing. I mean this in all sincerity, it would be like we are speaking two different languages.
I did watch that video that you posted a link for. I enjoyed the early discussion of the theological history of the predestination doctrine, but as time went on I felt that the preacher was just shouting at me. I know he's enthusiastic, but if his points are that good, then why shout? I would also disagree with his reasoning and conclusions, but perhaps it's not my place to debate the personality of a god which I do not believe in. I am trying to be fair and listen to other points of view, but I did find it hard to listen to.
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Chalam
Hi Gladring,
Language is tricky. I remember when learning French that the teacher said translation is not a mathematical formula but a different skill, yes some transposition but also comprehension, context, culture etc. Of course, the difficulties with translating the bible are to do with bringing another language to our own, taking into account the different culture, period in history and also understanding the culture of God to us which is increasingly alien to our world.
So faith in God does not come naturally. I would forget getting too hung up on the precise definition, the best dictionaries have a wide range of context sensitive definitions for many words anyhow.
Maybe an example is best? What is faith in God? What faith does God like?
Faith is trust. God wants us to trust Him like a child trusts their earthly father but even more! A child inherently trusts a parent and feels the unconditional love of that parent. Even if they do wrong, the parent loves them. When they do right the parent loves them. When they grown, the parent loves them and the fact they are growing and learning. When the child makes mistakes, the parent doesn't want the child to because they love them. However, sometimes they allow the child to continue in their own mistakes so the child can understand the parent loves them and is not saying no to be mean but to be loving.
Having children of my own has taught me more about my relationship with my Heavenly Father than anything. Reading the manual and learning the theory is great and necessary but practical wins out most every time!
Difficulty can come where trust has been broken by earthy parents. However, I have faith that God can restore anything or anyone He choses and will :)
Glad you watched some of Mark's video. I understand your comments about "shouting" and such but I agree it is out of his passion rather that wishing to beat people down. I think Mars Hill is a great church-if I lived there I would most likely go, God willing. They are stronger on some areas than maybe others but hey, the body of Christ is diverse and has many limbs and organs, functions and purposes. For sure, watching some Mars Hill videos has got to be far better that anything at the kingdom hall?! I have never been to a kingdom hall (wouldn't mind but would probably get throw out!) but my guess the meetings are quite crusty and boring?
All the best,
Stephen
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SacrificialLoon
:sacrificial,
:Well you can't prove he doesn't exist with 100% certianty.
No one can disprove a negative assertion. Everyone who has even studied a smidgeon of logic knows that. That is preciesely why true believers always use that logically fallacy when they run out of real arguments.
The classic dub argument in that vein is, "but what if we are RIGHT?" That allows them to escape the task of proving that they are right, which is a great cop out for lazy asses like dubs.
This argument could not even be settled by great philosophers and thinkers like Emmanual Kant. Why not just settle this argument by agreeing that everything in the human realm is based upon perception? Their "reality" is based upon their perception. "Shit" is a swearword, not because the word "shit" is essentially a bad word, but only because so many people perceive it to be such. The word "shit" couldn't give a shit that it might be a good word or a bad word, it is only people's perception that make it what it is.
If one's perception is that there is a God who will kill 6 billion people in the most horrible way possible, then for them their IS such a God. If one's perception is that God doesn't exist, then for them God doesn't exist.
Either way, from all we know and experience in all of human history spanning roughly a million years, God simply does not give a shit about humans alive on earth, so why worry about it?
Well he did ask theists & atheists for the best arguement you can come up with for the existance of God, and as an atheist that was the best I could come up with. The rest of my statement was that you can't disprove the existence of anything else equally absurd either.
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XJW4EVR
For me the best augment is TAG. Its best demonstration was the Gordon Stein (atheist)/Greg Bahnsen(theist) debate. Bahnsen won, BTW.