Why is Jesus kept side stage ?

by iknowall558 178 Replies latest watchtower bible

truthseeker

Reniaa,
If you feel you must be among Jehovah's Witnesses then why are you HERE? Why do you fellowship with us?
You are feeding at two tables from the Societies point of view. How do you think they would feel if they knew you came here, for whatever reason?
Clearly, you came to this site because you sensed something missing from the organization, now you back pedal and pretend they are more holy than any other Christian denomination.
I think you are at a crossroads Reniaa, having been on this forum for some time. I do not know why you are here unless you are counting time.
passwordprotected

Reniaa, you're hilarious.
You say;
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
I am with the witnesses for doctrinal reasons I could join other religions or stay apart in the world and make friends but are they better? and in some cases can be a lot worse but most of all they do not offer me any Bible truth as the Jws do.
Jehovah's witnesses believe in One Almighty God Jehovah as I do, they are my People! I should be with them :) I am working on this.
Do you realise that you've quoted Jesus saying that Christians are to gather in his name? Yet you go on and on about Jehovah. Do you meet at your Jehovah's Witness meetings in the name of Jesus or in the name of Jehovah?
You also discredit Thomas. But it's Jesus' reply to Thomas that you should focus on...
sacolton

I think Reniaa comes here because she's lonely. The "friends" probably don't give her much attention or support. Reniaa, I just wonder where you would be today if you had not been indoctrinated by the Watchtower? Were you born-in?
exjdub

HoboKen, Lurkr3, and iknowall558,
Unbelievable posts from "Newbies" (by the way I hate the term as it implies inexperience, which clearly does not apply to any of you). It is great to have new ones to the forum doing such a great job of telling the "truth about the Truth", so please keep up the good work!
A couple of comments about Renaiaa: I have seen thread after thread where people have asked direct questions of Renaiaa, only to have her either not answer the question at all or try to avoid the question by proposing answers that have nothing to do with the question that was asked of her. As frustrating as that is I still would not want her banned. The "truth about the Truth" comes out every time she avoids a direct question, or tries to sideline to another subject.
Oftentimes people watching and lurking will learn more from an interaction that is unsatisfactory, or clearly avoided, than they will from all of the wisdom that comes from JWN. This has happened many times on this board. There would be a lot fewer people on this forum if it was reserved only for die hard opposers to the WTB&TS. Let Renaiaa work her "magic" regardless of her motive because every time she plays the game she sends doubts out to those watching, as well as to herself.
exjdub
Hobo Ken

@ Reniaa
Hi hobo
show me one scripture that describes divine nature you believe of 3 in 1? you can't because it doesn't exist what you put on the table are faulty constructs that make a contradiction of thousands of other scriptures. Even john 1:1 with it's lack of ho theos for word and ho theos for God in the same scripture still makes the point that the word is WITH God not that it is God.
God the father is God right? So we'll assume we can leave him out of the equation.
Is Jesus God?
Titus 2:13 says that paul considered Jesus as his God.
2pet 1:1 says that peter condidered Jesus as his god and saviour.
John 20 :28 says that Thomas called Jesus "The god of me" TO JESUS FACE!!!!! Did Jesus correct him? No. Fact.
Isaiah 9:6 says he is a mighty god, (also calls jehovah mighty god in the next chapter)
John 1:1 describes Jesus thus " the word was divine".
What is the meaning of Divine? God ,.....but not the real God? That is Jw theology. That's like saying your father is your father but not your dad..
Either Jesus is a God of man or he isn't. The Bible says there is only one true God.
So from a Christian perspective who is this Jesus?
Yes he is God's son.
Yes his father has the ultimate authority.
Yes he is a separate person.
He is the god of Christians with God the father's full consent.
Why would Jehovah say in Isaiah 43:10 that there was no " God" formed either before or after him?
When did Jesus get his "God status" Reniaa? Not BEFORE or AFTER this point when Jehovah spoke as the scripture clearly says.
Are you calling Jehovah a liar?
The only salient plausible explanation is that he was God at that time as much as his father was God safe in the knowledge that he would be his follower's God , saviour and King as the above scriptures so eloquently testify.
You cannot deny the substance and content of these verses or the logic of the reasoning from the verse in Isaiah 43 :10.
Incidently your organisation has outright lied regarding the point you make about Jesus not being "Ho theos" or THE God.
The Watctower 1986 7/1 questions from readers says that Jesus is NEVER referred to in the new testament as "Ho Theos" or the God.
Try getting out your Interlinear and Looking up John 20:28.....What do we find.....emmmmm.... Jesus called "Ho Theos"
The Holy Spirit is Variously described in scripture as the Spirit of Jesus and and the spirit of Jehovah and in 2cor 3:17:- "Jehovah IS the Spirit."
The personality of the spirit is proved in the book of acts. The wts use the same line of reasoning that those scriptures prove to show that Satan is a real person.
Also get yourself a Vines expository and look up John 14:26 and the Greek words Allos and hetros and what the "parakletos" or spirit actually is.
You might want to reason on Just why Jesus said in matt 20:19 "Baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All three elements are have mention here because it's impossible to Worship as a Christian without these 3....
Perhaps the real problem is Reniaa is that as this thread Implies Jesus IS side stage to many JW's and the Holy Spirit?, well that is a whole other issue.
The Holy Spirit does not "dwell" in 99.9% of JW's as the Bible tells us it should, so how could you possibly understand and believe in anything other than what your organisation and your heavily bias "translation" tells you?
God is a Composite. Not the One named being that Jw's call Jehovah. Yes he was the Named God of Israel , but are you a Jew or a Christian Reniaa?
I have respect for the meaning behind the name YHWH and I fully accept the Hebrew Scriptures. I am a Christian and starting with the arrival of Jesus as documented in the Gospels there is where I take my cue from. I am after all a Christ----ian not a Jehovahian.
H.K.
lurk3r

I swear for emphasis sometimes.
Sacolton - Are you SHHHHHITTING me? You just asked Reniaa if she was was a born in. To answer your question, Is a frogs ass water tight? Read between your lines on this thread and you will have your answer in detail. I apologise for appearing harsh, but as frustrating as Reniaa is being, your on the
same page as her with such a question.
He is the god of Christians with God the father's full consent.
Excellent post Hobo. Excellent. To further draw this out for none other than emphasis, is Moses misgivings. I am ignorant of many things so please feel free to jump in and correct me. HE was punished for making it about HIMSELF when he gave the Isrealites water . Jesus made it about himself when he stated, "*I* am the way and the truth and the life" and is STILL in God's favor. Fair point to make?
PP, HK, Colton. You all make some great points. Good on ya.
Yes he was the Named God of Israel , but are you a Jew or a Christian Reniaa?
Hobo - What IF a person IS a Jew, and accepts Jesus in the traditional Christian way? What then do you think? I have been dabbling in the conceot of "accepting" him, but seeing him AS God, when I already know the YHWH as I do....I fear this could be turning my back on him.
Ren - Since you choose the course to run, that boils down to nothing more than convenience for you, please refrain from communicating with me, from here on in. I put a lot into that last effort of communicating with you, and was more than disappointed with your reply. Sigh. You make me feel as though I am out on service again.
Thanks for the compliment ex...you have much more patience than I.
lurk3r
passwordprotected

Lurk3r, what Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses fail to realise is that the Law and the prophets were fulfilled in Christ. If something is fulfilled it is no longer active; it is passive, it is something to be referred back to.
So, for someone to harp on and on about YHWH's activity within the Jewish nation and use that as a template for worship today, they'd be completely missing the point. YHWH was the God of the Law and Prophets; he administered righteous justice through the Law and for the most part spoke through the prophets.
The Law and the prophets, however, were used by YHWH to point forward to the arrival of the Lamb of God, the instrument that would take away sin and thus remove the barrier between sinful men God.
Once Christ arrived he fulfilled all of the Law and he fulfilled every word from the prophets. It would not be sensible, therefore, for a person to refuse to accept Christ as he is the provision from God to take away sins and to restore peace between us and God.
Phil 4: 6 Do not be anxious over anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving let YOUR petitions be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God that excels all thought will guard YOUR hearts and YOUR mental powers by means of Christ Jesus .
If we want to get to God, we need to go through Jesus, and to go through Jesus we need to recognise his place, not putting him off to the side or relegating him to a position lower than he is intended to be.
Eph 1:19 It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 f ar above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come . 22 He also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over all things to the congregation , 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.
Phil 2: 9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus everyknee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
Christ is above all authority in heaven and in earth, above every king and lordship and is the head of all Christians. He fills everything.
It's my contention that no one should fear accepting Jesus, asking him to personally intercede on their behalf, to personally forgive their sins and to become their Lord.
The Old Testament is all about Christ before he arrived. The New Testament is all about Christ now that he's alive and ruling over us.
Accepting Christ isn't rejecting YHWH.
Acts 4: 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else , for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.” What name? v 10 let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene
Hobo Ken

@lurk3r
Nice post from Pass there. My thoughts on the matter are pretty much expressed there and I could have chosen some other scriptures which make the same points as he just did.
Regarding your thoughts on Moses ,you're spot on. There were many occasions when Jesus accepted proskuneo from people when the apostle Peter refused it. Also the apostle John fell down to offer proskuneo(worship) to the angel , who quickly told him not to do that.
Regarding your second point it's fair to say that the temple curtain being ripped from top to bottom was the outward expression that the form of worship to YHWH by the Jews AS A NATION did in fact end in the 1st century. The further destruction of the temple showed that the former apparatus to worship God ceased.
So Jesus being sent to save everyone including jews or any other national group was the next step in God's purpose.
He only asks that we take him up on the offer and believe.
H.K.
iknowall558

Excellent post Mark...blinded by the Brilliance of light !
lurk3r

Which leads me to another question!
The Light. Light; is light. Dark; is dark. THAT is very black and white. With all the grey, its nice to have a stark contrast on some things.
I think it's faily safe to assume that the saying "I have seen the light!" could almost be considered a Christian term. I even know a few good jokes like this regarding baptism.
Iknowall just made reference to the "Brilliance of light" - and i think it is safe to assume he is talking about Jesus.
Lucifer is the "bringer of light" I believe. Yes? Light is light guys. care to pull a Reniaa on me?
HK- PLLLLLLLLEASE. He "only" asks that we take him up on the offer. Thats huge! I have felt my heart in such a way before, that I question whether JC could do the same. I felt this in a "non 'christian' way". But i felt it. For me, to "accept" Christ is not something that is as "easy" as you make it sound boys. Please don't take me wrong. I respect your faith immensley and am very happy for where you all are. I however, am not on your page in this book of life. Just like you were Witnesses, you would have wanted me to come over like you do now.
I respect Jesus. However, for me to accept him, while at the same time, in the back of my mind, wondering "what if things aren't what I thought they could be".......How could I possiblt think about accepting someone, if in the back of my mind wonder if ultimately I might possibly reject them? How much more disrespect could I possibly show? There is an "accept" button, and a " reject" button. Why can't we "court?"
with all due respect
lrkr

Why is Jesus kept side stage ?

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