Reniaa`s arguments give justification for every christian religion claiming to be the" truth" to be the channel God is using today. Anyone of them would fit in with her rational. So what makes the WT special????
smiddy
so they never claimed to be an inspired prophet?
by ninja 189 Replies latest watchtower bible
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isaacaustin
Iknowall you say it yourself clearly....
Biblical prophets perhaps did make mistakes.......BUT THEY DID NOT MAKE MISTAKES WHEN THEY WERE PROPHESYING. No genuine biblical example of an 'error' can be found in the prophecies of any TRUE prophet of God. Like I said.....100% success rate - iknowall
trying to place dates on inspired bible prophecy is not prophecy! foolish mistake but not prophecy. Jw's have never claimed the inspiration.
My reply: Trying to place dates on inspired Bible prophecy is not prophecying. Inisisting on dates, calling thaose dates God's promises, or the like is prophecying. The WT has done this multiple times and failed miserably- to a 0% accuracy. They themselves in their own WT have said that when other do this it is false prophecying. Jesus in his surmon on the mount said that how we judge we would be judged- in that measure. The WT needs to take its medicine.
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oompa
Claimng divine direction when interpreting the bible and being wrong about it should carry the same penalty as prophecying. Because BOTH claim the info is directed by god. How many times would you ask for directions from someone when they keep sending you off in the wrong direction over and over and over?.........two at the most for me.........though it turned out to be dozens of bad directions for over 45 years.........geeze i wish i had found my own way sooner..............oompa
either god is a terrible communicator with his directions.......the fds is a terrible listener.......or they cant communicate with others accurately.............period!
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isaacaustin
Reniaa says:
Acts 1:6-8 (New International Version)
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
were is the condemnation as false prophets here?
My reply: They asked a question. They did not state anything.
Reniaa says:
Luke 21:8 (New International Version)
8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them.
this is specifically talking about people claiming to be jesus himself and thus saying time is near. "claiming 'I am he'", these are qualification for false Jesus christs that come the two are not split up but a joint qualification that Jws do not qualify for because they have never said they are Jesus. I addressed someone trying to generalise this down to saying you are anointed is near enough by the following scripture
My reply: This apllies directly to the WT. They have set themself up in the place of Jesus....claiming to be the channel leading to Christ. They themselves have shut up the kingdom of heaven to those who do not cowtow to them.
Reniaa says:
2 Corinthians 1:21
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us,that reasoning would make the appostles here false prophets by claiming they were annointed
My reply: Only if you call Jesus a liar Reniaa. Go read the gospel accounts of Matt and Luke and see if the apostles chose themselves of if Jesus chose them.
Reniaa says:
Deuteronomy 18:19-22 (New International Version)
19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
this is a very general scripture but I have highlighted the flaws in applying it to witnesses because unless armageddon is a false prophecy in itself or Jesus coming is a false prophecy etc it doesn't apply.
My reply: You did all the work needed here Reniaa in verse 21... If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true
“The Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away”
Did the Creator promise a peaceful and secure new world before the 1914 generation passed away? No. Was this spoken in God's name? Yes, it was called his promise. Deut applies completely here.
Reniaa says:
Revelation 1:2-3 (New International Version)
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
we are comanded to preach these messages inspired utterances
My reply: Nice try Reniaa. Did you intentionally skip verse 1 to change the meaning of this???
- 1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
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- who gives witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ by reporting what he saw.
My reply: We are not commanded to testify- John testified. We are to read, learn and take to heart. We are to preach the Gospel- 1 Cor 15:1-4- Jesus- coming, death, rising, and repentance. John is not telling us in Revelation to spin prophecies off of Rev and to go plug in dates as the WT has done.
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- Blessed is the one 2 who reads aloud and blessed are those who listen to this prophetic message and heed what is written in it, for the appointed time is near.
Reniaa Says:
Acts 10:42
He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.none of them say usng dates alone is prophecy it it is said to be not a good idea since god would only know the time.
Your case is scripturally weak an involves splicing scriptures ignoring other indicators that are linked as qualifications.
and this following scriptures shows no condemntion of looking for times on ACTUAL bible prophecy...
My reply: Acts 10:42 describes preaching the Gospel and again shows the JWs preach another gospel. A verse stating that suing dates alone is not prophecy is not necessary. Deut 18 clearly states the criteria- speak in the name of God, it does not come to pass. There are no mitigating circumstances stated elsewhere.
Reniaa says:
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
they are not condemned for this, you have yet to address this scripture.
My reply: I have addressed this earlier in this thread. Again, the prophets searched. They did not spin fairytales and fables off of them.
Reniaa says:
John 21:22-23 (New International Version)
22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
were Jesus's followers here condemned for thinkng Jesus made a prediction concerning one them not dyng until he returned? Nope they were just corrected.
My reply: a rumor....not a mandatory belief one had to accept to remain in the fold.
Reniaa says:
presumptiousnss on dates is not false prophetcy the sciptures on false propets are very clear as to what they do that is false and how to recognise them.
My reply: Yes they are- refer to comments on Deut 18.
Reniaa says:
Mark 13:22
For false Christs and falseprophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and falseprophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.My reply: yes reniaa, these describe the WT to a tee.
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iknowall558
Isaac - - Good reply. Acts 1: 6 - 8 .....good point. I already said this to her a one stage , that there is a big difference between ......is it? and ...it is !
Thats what the apostles were saying.....IS IT the time for the Kingdom ? The WT says......IT IS the time for the... kingdom.... jesus return..... destruction of BTG,.... Armageddon....etc, etc.
Think she's jumped off the bus on this one..............she's holding a candle to the wind.
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isaacaustin
Yes iknowall558
It is never wrong to question. There would have been nothing wrong, for instance, had the WT said "Perhaps the creator in making his promise of the generation that would not pass away was speaking of what we beleive to be the generation of 1914, which we beleive is when Jesus directed his attention toward earthly affairs. Time will reveal the accuracy of this thought"
Instead the WT proclaimed it to be God's promise and mandated ALL to accept it. Those who did not accept this were dfed as apostates. A side point- they were not then reinstated when the WT had to change up on their fable after it failed.
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isaacaustin
Jesus admitted while a man on earth that he did not know when the end was coming. The Wt has insisted on various occasions that they do.
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isaacaustin
More out of context verse by Reniaa....
why would refinement mean Jehovah deliberately made us do the wrong choices? Holy spirit guides us but it is clear from adam onwards that we can still reject it and go our own way in judgement and opinion. Prophets like moses made clear mistakes but by your viewpoint he should never have sinned that way.
Jeremiah 9:7
Therefore this is what the LORD Almighty says: "See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?And do you want an even clearer scripture spelling it out?
My reply: This is not talking about getting it wrong and being given new light to refine teachings. It is talking about Judah being given over to Babylon and a remnant being brought back to the land. They would have abandoned their wrong practices and find mercy. The WT, after their supposed captivity, came out practicing the identical things that got them sent away. This has no application to your point Reniaa.
Daniel 11:35
Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.My reply: talking of God helping his people. Nothing of 'new light'.
1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.these are not scriptures showing we will have it right but clearly showing refinement will be needed right to the end, your being unbiblical by expecting anything different.
My reply: None of these show anything of what you are trying to say. It shows refinement of a person's faith- not a license for false datesetting in God's name.
I chose a religion that is clearly listening to holy spirit in these times allowing itself to be refined, I don't thing christendom is able to throw off the delusion anymore they are too mired in idolatry and Jesus worship to be able too.
My reply: The Holy Spirit can not be operative on a false prophet. I will not allow you to diverge onto another topic here as you are the queen of red herrings.
I think Jehovah's witnesses have more refinement ahead but thats what I would expect in our imperfect condition.
My reply: The only refinement that goes on in the WT cult is by Satan the devil for the control of people and alienation from Jesus.
Being eager and putting dates on ACTUAL bible prophecy for me isn't even in the same league as new christian religions growing from christendom that are claiming their own unbiblical prophecies that actually are prophecy and miracles and signs with charassmatic leaders calling themselves Jesus christ etc from my biblical research they have more to worry about concerning false prophecy.
My reply: We are not talking of other relgions. Again, let's not digress. the Wt stands, or in this case falls flat on its face, on its own merit.
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isaacaustin
So the WT's date-setting...such as the 1914 generation is only a mistake, and not a false prophecy?
Let's see:
1 Now in the same year, (A) in the beginning of the reign of (B) Zedekiah king of Judah, in the fourth year, in the fifth month, (C) Hananiah the son of Azzur, the prophet, who was from (D) Gibeon, spoke to me in the house of the LORD in the presence of the priests and all the people, saying,
2 " (E) Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, 'I have broken the yoke of the king of Babylon .
3 'Within two years I am going to bring back to this place (F) all the vessels of the LORD'S house, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon took away from this place and carried to Babylon .
(something God said he was do in the future, Hananiah is speaking in God's name a span of 2 yrs) (Jesus spoke of a generation that would by no means pass away- the WT identified this as the 1914 generation and gave a time limit to how long a generation can go on)
4 'I am (G) also going to bring back to this place (H) Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, and all the (I) exiles of Judah who went to Babylon,' declares the LORD, 'for I will break the (J) yoke of the king of Babylon.'"
5 Then the prophet Jeremiah spoke to the prophet Hananiah in the presence of the priests and in the presence of all the people who were standing in the (K) house of the LORD,
6 and the prophet Jeremiah said, " (L) Amen! May the LORD do so; may the LORD confirm your words which you have prophesied to bring back the vessels of the LORD'S house and all the exiles, from Babylon to this place.
(((Here is the key- Jeremiah defines as PROPHECY the words Hananiah spoke concerning the vessels coming back to Jerusalem- not simply the part about Jeconiah))) (((the WTs 1914 generation prophecy parallells Hananiah's Jeconiah prophecy- false!...the part of the vessels coming back was true, but the 2 yrs span spoken in God's name were false, just as the WT was correct that "this generation would not die", but falsely attributed it being tied to the physical 1914 generation and giving it that limit))
7 "Yet (M) hear now this word which I am about to speak in your hearing and in the hearing of all the people!
8 "The prophets who were before me and before you from ancient times (N) prophesied against many lands and against great kingdoms, of war and of calamity and of pestilence.
9 "The prophet who prophesies of peace, (O) when the word of the prophet comes to pass, then that prophet will be known as one whom the LORD has truly sent."
10 Then Hananiah the prophet took the (P) yoke from the neck of Jeremiah the prophet and broke it.
11 Hananiah spoke in the presence of all the people, saying, " (Q) Thus says the LORD, 'Even so will I break within two full years the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon from the neck of all the nations.'" Then the prophet Jeremiah went his way.
12 The (R) word of the LORD came to Jeremiah after Hananiah the prophet had broken the yoke from off the neck of the prophet Jeremiah, saying,
13 "Go and speak to Hananiah, saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "You have broken the yokes of wood, but you have made instead of them (S) yokes of iron."
14 'For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "I have put a (T) yoke of iron on the neck of all these nations, that they may serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; and they will (U) serve him And (V) I have also given him the beasts of the field."'"
Here is the sentence:
15 Then Jeremiah the prophet said to Hananiah the prophet, "Listen now, Hananiah, the LORD has not sent you, and (W) you have made this people trust in a lie.
16 "Therefore thus says the LORD, ' (X) Behold, I am about to remove you from the face of the earth This year you are going to (Y) die, because you have (Z) counseled rebellion against the LORD.'"
17 So Hananiah the prophet died in the same year in the seventh month.
Is the WT a false prophet due to their date-setting. Jeremiah quoted God as saying so. Is Jeremiah a false prophet?
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passwordprotected
@ iknowall;
Isaac - - Good reply. Acts 1: 6 - 8 .....good point. I already said this to her a one stage , that there is a big difference between ......is it? and ...it is !
Is it?