by allelsefails 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Mary
Post 10678
Yes there is because the One who would be given that Kingdom was the future Messiah, Jesus Christ as prophesied in Daniel 4:17 which the latter part reads:"and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind". This prophecy in the context of Neb's dream is further proof amongst many others that prove the antypical fulfillment of Neb's experience. Enjoy!
scholar JW
Scholar - did not answer my last question. Why did the WTS use the destruction of Babylon in 536 BCE (wrong) to count backwards for the 70 years (to 606)? They did not use the return of the Jews for this beginning date, but the destruction of Babylon. Also they knew about the "0" year mistake in 1913! But kept their false teaching about 606-1914 as the Gentile Times until the fifties! ................ The date originally did not come from the bible, but from Russel's exploration into Pyamidology. I have read studies in the scriptures and it is ridiculous. He forced the biblical account to match what he got from the pyramid. He also proved "scripturally" that: the "last days" began in 1799, Jesus came invisibly in 1874, and that 1914 would be the END not the beginning of the last days. ............................................................................What will Scholar do when the JWs change their teaching on 1914? Will he stick with them or to what he believes today and be an apostate?
later translations such as in Greek give 'years' but the Septuagint renders it as kairoi which means 'appointed times'. Later, the Latin also translates the Aramaic word as tempora which means 'yeara' or again as 'times'.
So what? Regardless of whether it is "years" or "appointed times" there is STILL nothing to link the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE with what happened to Nebuchadnezzar.
Your argument that the tree dream is nothing more than a chastisement of a king overlooks the blatant fact that the entire chapter is about the Kingdom of God and Sovereignty which Nebuchadnezzer confessed as to its reality so it is not surprising when you obscure this fact then you see nothing more than a simple story.
Sigh. Are you really this stupid? The entire chapter is talking about what happened to Nebuchadnezzar. There is absolutely nothing you can point to that indicates it's talking about anything else. You're simply repeating yourself over and ove again you buffoon.
You also choose to ignore the lingusitic connection between iddanim and kairoi as demonstrated in the NWT footnote which clearly proves that those 'seven times' were not literal years but a period of years.
Holy Christ, are you really this stupid?? Daniel 4:28 says that "..All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar." Do you get it? He went insane for 7 years and at the end of that time period, his sanity was restored. Yes it was a period of years-----Seven years exactly.
In fact, Jesus as recorded at Luke 21;24 used kairos and not chronos as you falsely allege and by the use of this word and the context of Jerusalem which typified the Kinngdom of God- the theme of Daniel 4 certainly connects well exegetically with the seven 'times' of Daniel 4.
I never said Jesus used the word chronos you asshole---I stated that if chronos had of been used, it simply would have demonstrated a choronlogical time frame, which STILL does not link the destruction of Jerusalem with Nebuchadnezzar.
Keep droning on scholar. It seems to be your main (and pathetic) goal in life to try and 'prove' that Jesus somehow began ruling in 1914. The fact that you have absolutely nothing to back up your ridiculous assertions apparently is no deterant. I'm sure all the negative responses you've received just bolsters your bizarre sense of being "persecuted for righeousness sake" and no matter how pathetic and stupid (not to mention, mentally unbalanced) you appear, you'll just keep on repeating the same stupid bullshit lines over and over again.
Maybe it's time for a new Thorazine drip eh?
Trawling through previous Watchtower publications in order to deconstruct our position or in order to prove an apostate agenda is futile and foolishness.The overriding fact is that there are far greater imperatives for Christians and the Church and these are to Preach the Gospel and to Keep on the Watch.
LMAO......Is that truly, the only response you can come up with dipshit? I guess it's kinda hard refusing the Craptower's own words on how being "sincere" doesn't mean anything eh? So of course you have to claim that it's "foolish" and "futile". Why am I not surprised?
Anyone else get the impression that ol' pseudo-scholar is becoming mentally unhinged here?
I keep seeing you confuse "the Kingdom of God" with the "Messianic Kingdom". The kingdom of God as Universal Soveriegn has always been and will always be. The Messianic Kingdom is the 1,000 year rule of Christ to bring creation back to perfection for God. The Messianic Kingdom began in 1914 (according to WTS) not the eternal Kingdom of God. The celebrated Watchtower Scholars have proved your arguement silly.
Hobo Ken
Post 174
You state that certain dates such as 1918 and 1935 are without scriptural validity in a manner of speaking but what you fail to realize that such dates are part of various prophecies that describe the True Church living in the Last Days. The Church would be refined and experience the intervention of the Head of the Church during this momentous period.and such interventiion is part and parcel of NT Theology.
It is incorrect to say that 1914 is not part of Bible Doctrine for indeed is part of Eschatology and its calculation is firmly based on Scripture with its chronology, prohecy and history so the Bible contains all of the necessary data for its determination. It is only correct to say that the 1914 as a number is not found in the Bible.
We have nothing to be embarrassed about and the Lord looks after His people and Organization and we have nothing to fear from the future but What about you?
scholar JW
Mary
Post 10679
There is sufficient exegetical points that link the Gentile Times of Luke 21:24 with Daniel 4. Firstly, there is the vocabulary with the use of kairos Gk with iddanim Aram. Secondly, there is the tense of the verb estai patoumene which literally means ' will be being trampled' which demotes a progressive past action into the future. Thirdly, the use of Jerusalem which has always had a theological significance amd in the particular relates to God's Kingdom which again is thematic of Daniel 4 and the entire book. Fourthly, the Olivet Discourse of Luke 21 deals with events gthat involve the destruction of wordly nations and worldly rulers which again is thematic of Daniel 4 and the book of Daniel. Fifth, Jesus quoted often from Daniel as seen in the Olivet Discourse of Mark 13, Luke 21 and Matt. 24-25.
I could go on further but five reasons will do for the moment.
Daniel 4 is not just about Neb and his spanking but there were other parties involved such as God Himself, the future Heir of the Kingdom, the Watchers and Daniel himself so the story is bigger than Neb for it is like that big cosmic tree. Further you have that overriding theme of the Kingdom which is what Neb was forced to recognize.
For a person who is a stupid as you claim scholar certainly has you in his grips and commands your instant attention. If scholar is such a fool as you claim then just ignore him and he will go away but you can't because scholar is a potent danger to apostates and their deceitful lying propaganda.
scholar JW
Daniel 4 is about God's Kingdom and right to rule over mankind which means sovereignty and Nebuchadnezzer confessed to this simple fact after the end of seven years of abasement. The dream has several features that prove that it has a far greater significance becaus ethat kingdom was yet to be a reality in men's affairs awaiting the arrival of Jesus Christ to be installed by God as Ruler of that Kingdom for this is proved by the prophecy in Daniel 4:17.,
Actually, all of the Aramaic apocalypse of Daniel concerns God's kingdom and the authority he gives to men to rule. That's the theme that runs through the Aramaic section as a whole (2:21, 37-38, 44, 3:28-29, 4:2-3, 22, 25, 30-32, 34-35, 37, 5:18-23, 6:26-27, 7:18, 26-27). The stories concerning Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar in ch. 4-5 illustrate the point made in Daniel 4:17 that "the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes". Compare 2:21: "He sets up kings and deposes them". God gave Nebuchadnezzar all his power and success (2:37), but ch. 4 shows that he could just as easily take it away or give it back. The same theme is found in ch. 5, which reiterates the story in ch. 4 and relates how Belshazzar lost his kingdom because he did not acknowledge God. The apocalyptic material in ch. 2 and 7 (which are largely parallel surveys of history) is what "prophesies" that the fourth kingdom will be the last until God replaces all these kingdoms with his own rule. The stories about Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar reinforce the point that God delegates authority to whom he pleases (whether it is to Darius from Belshazzar in ch. 5 or to the saints of his people from the fourth kingdom in ch. 7), but they are not eschatological prophecies in themselves. Why does the Society extend Daniel's warning to Nebuchadnezzar to refer to distant future times (e.g. 1914), but not his warning to Belshazzar in the next chapter? Why does the former supposedly point to the "last days" but not the mene-mene-tekel-parsin warning? There is nothing in the text itself that points to anything beyond the application that the writer himself gives, i.e. to Nebuchadnezzar himself.
Your argument that the tree dream is nothing more than a chastisement of a king overlooks the blatant fact that the entire chapter is about the Kingdom of God and Sovereignty which Nebuchadnezzer confessed as to its reality so it is not surprising when you obscure this fact then you see nothing more than a simple story.
The story is not about a mere chastisement of a king. It is about how what happens to Nebuchadnezzar foreshadows what happens to Belshazzar in ch. 4 and what happens to the fourth kingdom in ch. 7. But recognizing this literary connection is altogether different from allegorizing the story to turn it into a chronological cipher of the "last days". The "Gentile Times" pesher pursued by the Society doesn't even make internal sense. Nebuchadnezzar is the Gentile king who brought the earthly representative of God's kingdom to an end, and yet it is the incapacitation of Nebuchadnezzar that is made to symbolize not the cessation of Gentile rule but Gentile hegemony over the earth, such that the return of this Gentile king to power is supposed to represent the end of the "times" of Gentile rule.
Further, in proof of the fact that iddanim means 'times' is supported by the footnote in the Hermeneia commentary on Daniel by John Collins which I have referred to in a previous posting on this subject.
Actually, Ginsburg (Studies in Daniel) noted that khronos "time" was used idiomatically in the sense of "year" in Greek (referring to counted periods of time used to compute dates) and suggests that 'iddan reflects Greek idiom (just as ch. 3 contains a few Greek loanwords into Aramaic). Then when Daniel was translated into Greek (the OG version), kairos was employed instead of khronos as the term equivalent to 'iddan.
In fact, Jesus as recorded at Luke 21;24 used kairos and not chronos as you falsely allege and by the use of this word and the context of Jerusalem which typified the Kinngdom of God- the theme of Daniel 4 certainly connects well exegetically with the seven 'times' of Daniel 4.
Luke 21:24 is allusive of Daniel but not the kairoi from ch. 4 but the kairoi mentioned in ch. 7 (specifically 7:25), the chapter that is actually depicting the establishment of God's rule on the earth. The use of the verb "trample" is especially linked linguistically to ch. 7. The 3 1/2 times of ch. 7 is midrashically interpreted in ch. 9 (from the Hebrew apocalypse of Daniel) as the final portion of 70 weeks of years, the half-week during which the Jerusalem sanctuary is desolated with war and abominations. The author of Luke has this whole period in view as the "times of the Gentiles", as it is precisely a period when Jerusalem would face "times of trouble" and desolation. The language in ch. 21 of Luke reflects both ch. 7 and ch. 9 of Daniel.
allelsefails
Post 71
I thought I answered your question so let us try again and scholar will help you for scholar loves to help people. You are mistaken because the seventy years was always counted not from the Fall of Babylon but from the Return of the Jews under Cyrus in 536 BCE which began in 606 BCE with the destruction of Jerusalem. This is explained in The Time is at Hand, p.51 by Charles Russell. At that time those earnest Bible Students found confirmation for their Bible Chronology in the Pyramids of Egypt which was quite fashionable amongst scholars of the day.
However, celebrated WT scholars with the aid of increased scholarship saw the need for some 'fine tuning' and so providentially adjustments were made to our chronology such as the zero year, Date of Babylon's Fal amongst other technical matters resulting in an advanced and superior Bible chronology in 1966 vindicating amongst other things 607 BCE and 1914 CE.
scholar JW
allelsefails
Post 72
The Messianic Kingdom is an adjunct to God's Kingdom.
scholar JW
