Im glad you liked my post, I was not trying to be mean just bringing out the humor in your belifes.The fact that not only us but you too can laugh at your own weird ideas makes you an ok guy in my book.But in the end that is all the bible really is, opinion.Its isrealite ideas,opinions and storys.Thats what makes religion so comical,you got people today trying to mesh their ideas and opinions with ideas and opinions from men 3000 years ago, the result is pure comady.
space.com dates Noah's flood to 2350 B.C.
by aChristian 251 Replies latest jw friends
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aChristian
Alan,
You wrote: If I, as the parent of a small child, don't make sure that my child is safe from dangers that are very clear to me, then it inevitably follows that I don't care whether the child gets hurt, in the sense that if I did care, I would ensure that he is safe. This is simply a tautology. There's an even more obvious tautology in my example of God creating life as he has. Here we have God not simply allowing pain and suffering to happen, but actually designing his world so that it happens.
Some people feel that the existence of evil, for any length of time, is impossible to harmonize with the existence of a loving God. They say that the instant any evil appeared in a good God's universe He would have to immediately put an end to it. However, I believe God allows evil to exist, and actually designed our world with evil as a very important part of it, so that we may come to know both good and evil. I believe this first hand knowledge of both good and evil will serve all people well for all eternity, long after all evil has been removed from the universe. By God having designed a world where all people are certain to gain a first hand knowledge of evil, and more importantly the harmful effects of evil, all who choose to serve God will gain an understanding of why God's ways are the best ways, an understanding that will serve them well for all eternity.
Possibly you see some sense in this. Some of those who do say that, even if God desired his children to be temporarily exposed to evil as a learning experience, a good God could never allow so much evil to exist. They say a good God would certainly severely limit the pain and suffering that He allowed His children to endure as a result of the evil He allowed to temporarily exist. They look at the great suffering many people throughout history have endured and ask, "Wouldn't a loving God, if He existed, have stepped in and limited the amount of evil, pain and suffering these people had to endure? I believe questions such as this actually get to the heart of the problem of God permitting evil.
Let me ask you this. If a good God does exist, would you really believe He exists if you saw less evil in the world, if you saw people suffering less? I doubt it. For you know as well as I do that an all loving God, once He decided to stop evil, would have to stop all evil. If He were to stop only part of the evil, then wouldn't you still be asking the question, "If an all loving God exists, why is there evil in the world?" Would you really be any more likely to accept the existence of the God of the Bible if He stopped all pain caused by "natural causes," diseases, earthquakes and the like, but allowed people to continue hurting each other? I doubt it. For a perfectly righteous God, once He decided to bring about an end to evil, would have to bring about an end to all evil. He could not end all "natural" forms of evil but allow people to continue to murder each other. He could not prevent all murder but continue to permit beatings and rapes. He could not stop all beatings and rapes but continue to allow all robberies, cheating and adultery.
I think you get my point. Some maintain that any amount of pain or unrighteousness in the universe proves there is no God. However, I maintain that it has actually been by God's purpose that pain, death and evil have long existed in order for all of us to learn valuable lessons while being exposed to them. And because God is all loving, all knowing and all powerful, He cannot stop only some evil. The Bible tells us that God will one day bring an end to evil. And it tells us that when He does so, because He is all loving, all knowing and all powerful, He will then bring an end to all evil.
You wrote: It's not clear to me if you think that the physical universe is just a temporary stepping stone to life on a purely "spiritual plane".
Yes, I do.
You wrote: The process seems to me to be unnecessarily long and complicated.
To us, at this tiny moment in eternity, yes it does.
You wrote: You're speculating that God deliberately designed a world in which pain and suffering was an integral part for more than half a billion years? To what end? For what observers?
I believe there are many events which God arranged to take place in the past, including many events which are recorded in the scriptures, for the purpose of teaching mankind great lessons, many of which we will probably not understand for a long, long time.
You wrote: I hope you refrained from answering many of my questions because of lack of time.
I hope to find time to answer all of your questions as best I can. As I'm sure you know, this has been a very busy week for most of us.
You wrote: If God says directly that he will one day resurrect all who have died, then believing this and acting on it is not a presumption. It's taking God at his word. Thus the problem I posed in my earlier post remains: since God will set everything right in the end, what is the point of "morality"?
Is it OK to steal someone's car if you know that his insurance company is going to pay him for his loss? No, it is not. It is wrong to force someone else to fix our mistakes, even if we know that they will.
You wrote: If humans are actually some sort of combination of a physical body plus a "soul" or "spirit", then what is the point of your overall scenario where for perhaps several million years, early humans were born, somehow attached to this "spirit" thingy, then died, and then the "spirit" thingy put in cold storage until resurrection? Perhaps if you give an overall picture of your views on the "evolution of man" from apish forebears to the ultimate form, that would help. Just how do all the individuals who have ever lived fit in?
I don't understand why my beliefs about early humans poses a problem. As I have said before, I believe that at some point during the physical evolution of our species God intervened and gave highly evolved primates the ability to comprehend "spiritual" concepts, such as eternity, morality, justice and God. I believe He also then began giving them eternal spirits. I believe these were the creative acts spoken of in Gen. 1:27. I believe that from that time on the spirits of all humans who died went "in cold storage until the resurrection," as you say.
You wrote: Just answer the question. If God ordered you to kill your family and neighbors, would you do it? ... Inherent in my question is the supposition that you know for certain that God is doing the ordering.
Though I have tried my best to do so, I guess you are not going to let me avoid answering this question. I have said that I am absolutely sure that my God would never ask me to do such a thing. I have said that I am so sure of it, that I would not believe any such order was really coming from God. However, as you correctly pointed out, Abraham had good reason to feel the same way when God ordered him to kill his son. But somehow Abraham became convinced that it was, in fact, God giving him the order. So, if Abraham could become convinced, then I guess so could I. And the Bible tells us what happened when Abraham became convinced that God was giving him that order. "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.' " (Heb. 11:17, 18)
So then, with Abraham as my example, I will finally answer your question. If God ordered me to kill my family and neighbors, and I knew for certain that it was God doing the ordering, I would try my best to do so. And I would do so for the same reason that Abraham did so. "Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead." (Heb. 11:19)
The sentiment I just expressed reflected what is, of course, the technically correct response to your question for a servant of God who recognizes Abraham as an outstanding example of a true man of faith. However, the vast majority of Christians including myself do not possess the kind of faith that Abraham did. Because we do not, the vast majority of Christians, including myself, would not be able to do what Abraham did. I believe God understands this fact. And just as He forgave Peter for denying Christ three times, I believe He would forgive the vast majority of Christians, including myself, if we lacked the faith necessary to obey such a command.
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Naeblis
And then people say fundamentalism isn't dangerous. I pity you.
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clash_city_rockers
aChristian,
I see that you been extra diligent to avoid my critique.
jr
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aChristian
Clash,
I believe I already answered most of your questions in my other posts. There are a few reasons I don't respond to your posts. To begin with, it appears to me that your reading comprehension skills are not the best. For instance, you confused what I said about Eden's "Tree of Life" with its "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." On top of that, your grammar, sentence structure and spelling are all so bad that I sometimes have a hard time understanding what you are saying. Since you find it difficult to understand what I am saying and I find it difficult to understand what you are saying there seems to be little point in us trying to communicate.
Besides, I have little time to spend on this board. And I think my time would be better spent talking to someone who has not yet accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord. You believe in a young earth, a global flood, and that God did not use evolution as His means of creation. I believe otherwise. However, though I believe your understandings on these things are in error, I see little point in trying to convince you of the error of your ways. For I do not believe that God requires Christians to understand all parts of the Bible correctly, or even that He requires us to all understand all parts of the Bible in exactly the same way. That being the case, I see little reason to try to make you understand Genesis exactly as I do.
I believe you now have salvation through Jesus Christ since you have faith in the power of His sacrificial death to atone for your sins. So I don't worry about you, Clash. I hope you had a great Christmas.
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AlanF
To aChristian:
First off I want to thank you for your honesty. In my experience it's the rare Christian who is honest about what he knows and doesn't know in the face of challenges. Faced with a difficult challenge, a great many Christians attack the challenger, ignore the question and pretend to have answered, or simply disappear.
: You wrote: If I, as the parent of a small child, don't make sure that my child is safe from dangers that are very clear to me, then it inevitably follows that I don't care whether the child gets hurt, in the sense that if I did care, I would ensure that he is safe. This is simply a tautology. There's an even more obvious tautology in my example of God creating life as he has. Here we have God not simply allowing pain and suffering to happen, but actually designing his world so that it happens.
: Some people feel that the existence of evil, for any length of time, is impossible to harmonize with the existence of a loving God. They say that the instant any evil appeared in a good God's universe He would have to immediately put an end to it. However, I believe God allows evil to exist, and actually designed our world with evil as a very important part of it, so that we may come to know both good and evil. I believe this first hand knowledge of both good and evil will serve all people well for all eternity, long after all evil has been removed from the universe. By God having designed a world where all people are certain to gain a first hand knowledge of evil, and more importantly the harmful effects of evil, all who choose to serve God will gain an understanding of why God's ways are the best ways, an understanding that will serve them well for all eternity.
An interesting scenario. In my mind, though, it raises more questions than it answers.
: Possibly you see some sense in this. Some of those who do say that, even if God desired his children to be temporarily exposed to evil as a learning experience, a good God could never allow so much evil to exist. They say a good God would certainly severely limit the pain and suffering that He allowed His children to endure as a result of the evil He allowed to temporarily exist. They look at the great suffering many people throughout history have endured and ask, "Wouldn't a loving God, if He existed, have stepped in and limited the amount of evil, pain and suffering these people had to endure? I believe questions such as this actually get to the heart of the problem of God permitting evil.
I agree.
: Let me ask you this. If a good God does exist, would you really believe He exists if you saw less evil in the world, if you saw people suffering less? I doubt it. For you know as well as I do that an all loving God, once He decided to stop evil, would have to stop all evil. ... For a perfectly righteous God, once He decided to bring about an end to evil, would have to bring about an end to all evil...
Ok so far.
: I think you get my point. Some maintain that any amount of pain or unrighteousness in the universe proves there is no God. However, I maintain that it has actually been by God's purpose that pain, death and evil have long existed in order for all of us to learn valuable lessons while being exposed to them. And because God is all loving, all knowing and all powerful, He cannot stop only some evil. The Bible tells us that God will one day bring an end to evil. And it tells us that when He does so, because He is all loving, all knowing and all powerful, He will then bring an end to all evil.
Do you have any time frame on this? We already know that life in some form has existed on the earth for more than three billion years, and life with hard parts for more than half a billion. Human-like creatures have been around for several million, and Homo sapiens for at least a hundred thousand. Evil, in the form of pain, suffering and violence, has certainly been around a large fraction of those several billion years.
Are you plugging the "lion shall lie down with the lamb" idea? If so, then it appears to me that you're going along with the JW notion of a paradise earth that last forever. What, then, of humans that are born? Do they live forever on earth? Or do they die in human form at some point and then go off to heaven, or wherever?
Perhaps if you'd give an overall picture of your views, readers will understand how the bits and pieces we've seen so far fit together into a coherent whole.
: You wrote: It's not clear to me if you think that the physical universe is just a temporary stepping stone to life on a purely "spiritual plane".
: Yes, I do.
Based on what?
: You wrote: The process seems to me to be unnecessarily long and complicated.
: To us, at this tiny moment in eternity, yes it does.
Well, I don't consider a billion years a "tiny moment in eternity".
: You wrote: You're speculating that God deliberately designed a world in which pain and suffering was an integral part for more than half a billion years? To what end? For what observers?
: I believe there are many events which God arranged to take place in the past, including many events which are recorded in the scriptures, for the purpose of teaching mankind great lessons, many of which we will probably not understand for a long, long time.
In other words, you don't know. Fair enough.
: You wrote: I hope you refrained from answering many of my questions because of lack of time.
: I hope to find time to answer all of your questions as best I can. As I'm sure you know, this has been a very busy week for most of us.
Of course. But we seem to pick up on these discussions only several times a year, so our time scale is long.
: You wrote: If God says directly that he will one day resurrect all who have died, then believing this and acting on it is not a presumption. It's taking God at his word. Thus the problem I posed in my earlier post remains: since God will set everything right in the end, what is the point of "morality"?
: Is it OK to steal someone's car if you know that his insurance company is going to pay him for his loss? No, it is not. It is wrong to force someone else to fix our mistakes, even if we know that they will.
I don't think that stealing is ok, even if losses are covered. But that's not the point. The point is that if you argue that God's killing someone directly or allowing them to die via neglect is ok because in the end they'll be resurrected, then no matter what happens, it's all according to God's plan, and so no one should be too bothered by any "crimes" that are committed. In this I see a great potential for evil, because no one is responsible for their own actions. Whatever "bad" a person does, well, that's just according to God's great plan and is another illustration of "evil".
So my question remains: What is the point of "morality"? Corollary questions that we've touched on and remain unanswered in this thread are "Who defines morality?" and "Is there a moral standard apart from God?"
: You wrote: If humans are actually some sort of combination of a physical body plus a "soul" or "spirit", then what is the point of your overall scenario where for perhaps several million years, early humans were born, somehow attached to this "spirit" thingy, then died, and then the "spirit" thingy put in cold storage until resurrection? Perhaps if you give an overall picture of your views on the "evolution of man" from apish forebears to the ultimate form, that would help. Just how do all the individuals who have ever lived fit in?
: I don't understand why my beliefs about early humans poses a problem.
Not necessarily a show stopper, but one of understanding how these specific items fit into your overall view of Christianity, the Bible and God's plan.
: As I have said before, I believe that at some point during the physical evolution of our species God intervened and gave highly evolved primates the ability to comprehend "spiritual" concepts, such as eternity, morality, justice and God.
When, and what hard evidence do you have for this belief?
: I believe He also then began giving them eternal spirits. I believe these were the creative acts spoken of in Gen. 1:27.
I see. Since you believe that "Bible chronology" pegs Noah's Flood at 2350 B.C., do you also feel that Adam & Eve were created in this manner somewhere around 6000 years ago? Please elaborate.
: I believe that from that time on the spirits of all humans who died went "in cold storage until the resurrection," as you say.
Please do elaborate. Are you saying that when a human is born (or conceived, or whatever) God creates a "spirit" and somehow attaches it to the physical body? Where do you find justification for these beliefs? Any specific Bible statements? Or are they deductions?
In a previous post you wrote:
:: The scriptures indicate that our "souls" or "spirits" normally "sleep" following our deaths, prior to the time we are resurrected. (Acts 7:60; 1 Thes. 4:14,15) Thus we can understand Samuel's comment to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" (1 Sam. 28:15)
This entire scene seems to me to be pure hocus pocus. We have some wild-eyed ancient "witch" going through some motions that "bring up" Samuel. Just how does this "bringing up" work? Who brings it up? Who "awakens" it? Does this happen on command by any human? Or only witches and necromancers? If the "awakened spirit" can speak and think, and has the full memories and personality of the "dead" human to which it was once attached, then the concept of a "resurrection from the dead" takes on a rather different meaning than appears to be the case in many parts of the Bible. For example, when Lazarus died, his "spirit" would have gone into "cold storage" for a short time, and then been "called back" and reattached to a rejuventated physical body, right? How strange that sounds. And in the end, when all these "spirits" are "resurrected" to a "spiritual plane", just what does that mean? And how do you derive all this from the Bible?
: You wrote: Just answer the question. If God ordered you to kill your family and neighbors, would you do it? ... Inherent in my question is the supposition that you know for certain that God is doing the ordering.
: Though I have tried my best to do so, I guess you are not going to let me avoid answering this question.
Someone has to keep you honest.
: I have said that I am absolutely sure that my God would never ask me to do such a thing. I have said that I am so sure of it, that I would not believe any such order was really coming from God. However, as you correctly pointed out, Abraham had good reason to feel the same way when God ordered him to kill his son. But somehow Abraham became convinced that it was, in fact, God giving him the order. So, if Abraham could become convinced, then I guess so could I. And the Bible tells us what happened when Abraham became convinced that God was giving him that order. "By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.' " (Heb. 11:17, 18)
You've followed my line of thought perfectly.
: So then, with Abraham as my example, I will finally answer your question. If God ordered me to kill my family and neighbors, and I knew for certain that it was God doing the ordering, I would do so. And I would do so for the same reason that Abraham did so. "Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead." (Heb. 11:19)
Good. I was pretty sure that your answer, even if not enunciated on this board, would be such.
Of course, I asked this question not to put you personally on the spot, but to illustrate several points.
First is a philosophical point: Your answer shows that you define "morality" in terms of what God does or instructs. Whatever God does or instructs is by definition "moral" or "good". Thus it is a relative morality, and it can (and according to the Bible, does) change when God changes his mind. If "whatever God does" is "good", then it follows that saying "God is good" is meaningless because it is saying the obvious, "God does what God does". Thus we have no standard for judging whether what God does is "good", because what he does is good by assumption. That means that we can have faith in God, and can agree that we like what he does, but we cannot give a non-emotional reason for it. Thus the Bible's invitation, "Taste and see that the LORD is good" (Psalm 34:8) leaves no room for judgment, and so is meaningless.
Second is a practical point: Your answer is behind a great deal of evil done in the name of God, Allah or whatever, by those who truly think that God has told them to do something. This necessarily follows from the assumption that "whatever God does is good", because a person who buys into it has no basis for rejecting a call by someone he thinks is God to commit actions he would think abhorrent if called upon by anyone else to commit. The results of this philosophy include aberrations in the Jehovah's Witness religion such as causing people to die over the blood transfusion issue, mass killings of Jews and Protestants by various Catholic Inquisitors, burnings of "witches", and even the mass terrorism of an Osama bin Laden engaged in jihad.
All of the above relates strongly to the reason this board exists -- to provide a place for discussion among JWs and ex-JWs of the experiences that led them to question JW leaders. We know from observation that a great many JWs will go along with whatever JW leaders -- "God's spokesmen" -- say, no matter how outrageous or how stupid. Disobeying the Watchtower Society is identical to disobeying God, they claim. So we find a tradition among the JW leadership of quietly going along with whatever "God's anointed" say, so that by the time a man becomes prominent in "Jehovah's organization" he has a long history of prostituting his conscience to that of those above him. Thus we find today's recalcitrance among JW leaders to change and begin doing what is right. The sad thing is that it all stems from a willingness to obey God, or whoever one believes speaks for God, over and above doing what one otherwise knows is right.
: The sentiment I just expressed reflected what is, of course, the technically correct response to your question for a servant of God who recognizes Abraham as an outstanding example of a true man of faith. However, the vast majority of Christians including myself do not possess the kind of faith that Abraham did. Because we do not, the vast majority of Christians, including myself, would not be able to do what Abraham did. I believe God understands this fact. And just as He forgave Peter for denying Christ three times, I believe He would forgive the vast majority of Christians, including myself, if we lacked the faith necessary to obey such a command.
Perhaps so, but as you obviously realize, we're not talking about the many who are unable to live up to "God's standards", but about those standards themselves. My comments stand.
AlanF
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aChristian
Alan,
I added an additional paragraph to my last post to you at about the same time you just added your latest post to this thread. I will try to respond late tonight. I've got to go to work right now for a few hours.
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AlanF
No hurry, aChristian. I added a comment of my own to your edits.
AlanF
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GWEEDO
AChristian
Quick question:
Do Adam and Eve get a resurrection?
This is just one of the questions I was asking myself before I decided to dump it all and become an agnostic with strong atheistic leanings.
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aChristian
Alan,
I wrote: The Bible tells us that God will one day bring an end to evil. And it tells us that when He does so, because He is all loving, all knowing and all powerful, He will then bring an end to all evil.
You wrote: Do you have any time frame on this?
As I understand the scriptures, this will take place at the end of Christ's 1,000 year reign over all the earth, a reign which I believe will soon begin. Please don't ask me to define "soon." Though I have my suspicions as to when Christ will return, I have no intention of putting those suspicions in writing. For anyone who has ever done so has only managed to make himself look like a total fool. And since I consider myself to be only a partial fool, I'm not going there.
You wrote: Are you plugging the "lion shall lie down with the lamb" idea? If so, then it appears to me that you're going along with the JW notion of a paradise earth that [will] last forever. What, then, of humans that are born? Do they live forever on earth? Or do they die in human form at some point and then go off to heaven, or wherever? Perhaps if you'd give an overall picture of your views, readers will understand how the bits and pieces we've seen so far fit together into a coherent whole.
I'm not plugging any idea. As you know, there are many different ways of understanding what the Bible has to say about what God has in store for the planet earth, and for the human race. Any of them is just as valid as my own. But since you have asked for my beliefs, I'll give them to you. I will not, however, quote scriptures to try to prove my speculations are correct. For all of the scriptures I could quote to support my present beliefs are understood differently by other Christians. Only time will tell which of the many ways Christians now understand the Bible in these matters is correct, or if they are all incorrect. Maybe I shouldn't do this because I don't want to start an eschatology debate. Because, like I said, I believe anyone's opinion on such matters is as valid as another. But here goes.
I believe that when Christ returns He will first resurrect all who have ever died as one of God's servants. (By "resurrection" I mean Christ acting to awaken their sleeping spirits and then giving those spirits new glorified, immortal, incorruptible bodies in which to dwell.) I believe Christ will then gather His elect who are alive at the time of His return (those He then judges to be true Christians) from all over the earth. I believe Christ will then give those Christians the same kind of glorified bodies He just gave to those who had died as one of God's servants. I believe Christ will then appoint all of these glorified servants of God to act as kings and priests on the earth during His thousand year reign. I believe they will then lead the efforts to bring the good news of Jesus Christ to the approximately 2/3 of the earths population which has now never heard it, and possibly to properly present it to many in the Christian world who have heard only a corrupted version of it. I believe Christ will also ask these glorified king/priests to judge the hearts of "men and angels" who have heard the good news of Jesus Christ but rejected it for one reason or another. Whether they do this judging work at the beginning of Christ's thousand year reign, during that reign, at its end, or all of the above, I have not yet formed an opinion. I believe that, other than the fact that Satan and his fellow fallen angels will not be allowed to have any influence over the earth during this time, life on planet earth will go on in many ways as it always has. ( Lions will continue killing gazelles and spiders will continue killing flies. For I believe "The lion will lie down with the lamb," is simply a biblical metaphor for a peaceful earth.) However, I expect there will be great advances in all the sciences, especially medicine and agriculture, during this time. Add this to the fact that earth will then also have millions (I understand the number "144,000" to be a symbolic number) of new perfectly righteous rulers, and the fact that they will almost certainly act to eliminate all national borders and all weapons of war, and in my mind I see something not too far from the JW view of paradise. I believe that at the end of the millennium Satan and his demons will be allowed to influence the earth again briefly before all who oppose Christ's rule are destroyed. I believe at that time, when the thousand years have ended - not during the thousand years as JWs teach - that the second resurrection will take place. I believe this resurrection will include all who have ever lived and died. I believe that God may then judge all people's hearts knowing how they would have responded to the gospel if they had had it properly presented to them. I believe that all who are then judged favorably will also be given glorified bodies. I believe at that time heaven will descend to earth, in other words heaven and earth will become one. This will amount to "a new heavens and a new earth" which will be entirely new. I believe that a fully glorified human race will then reside with God Himself in a spiritual universe completely free of all evil, all pain, and all unrighteousness forever.
You wrote: It's not clear to me if you think that the physical universe is just a temporary stepping stone to life on a purely "spiritual plane".
I wrote: Yes, I do.
You wrote: Based on what?
My personal interpretation of the scriptures.
You wrote: The process seems to me to be unnecessarily long and complicated.
I wrote: To us, at this tiny moment in eternity, yes it does.
You wrote: Well, I don't consider a billion years a "tiny moment in eternity".
Any period of time, even a billion times a billion years, is a tiny moment in eternity.
You wrote: If God says directly that he will one day resurrect all who have died, then believing this and acting on it is not a presumption. It's taking God at his word. Thus the problem I posed in my earlier post remains: since God will set everything right in the end, what is the point of "morality"?
Even God cannot "set everything right in the end." If you kill someone, even if God later resurrects them, you cause them great physical pain, deprive them of life for a period of time, and cause their loved ones great emotion pain, none of which you have any right to do. If you hurt anyone in any way, you cause them either emotional or physical pain that a later action by God will not retroactively remove. The point to morality is to avoid hurting others in the here and now, which we all live in all the time.
You wrote: The point is that if you argue that God's killing someone directly or allowing them to die via neglect is ok because in the end they'll be resurrected, then no matter what happens, it's all according to God's plan, and so no one should be too bothered by any "crimes" that are committed.
The God who created the universe has the intelligence and the wisdom to always correctly decide when taking a life is justified. You and I do not. For that reason God has forbidden us to do some things which He allows Himself to do.
You wrote: "Is there a moral standard apart from God?"
Yes. I believe that standard is pretty simple. It is immoral to deliberately do anything that may hurt others for our own gain or pleasure. It is also immoral to deliberately do anything that may hurt others while attempting to accomplish "a much greater good," if we have no way of knowing that our actions really will accomplish "a much greater good." Some say that God's moral standard is, "Whatever I do is right." I disagree. I believe God operates by the same moral standard that I just mentioned. The only difference between us and God is that God possesses infinite knowledge, including a knowledge of the future. So what may seem to us to have been an immoral act on His part, I believe, was always done to accomplish a much greater good, while knowing that His action really would accomplish that "much greater good."
I wrote: I believe that at some point during the physical evolution of our species God intervened and gave highly evolved primates the ability to comprehend "spiritual" concepts, such as eternity, morality, justice and God.
You wrote: When, and what hard evidence do you have for this belief?
I believe this probably took place at the time Homo Sapiens appeared on earth, though it may have happened sooner. I forget now what I read a while back about when scientists believe that manlike creatures first began burying their dead together with flowers, which has been interpreted by some as indicating their belief in an afterlife. I have no real hard evidence to support my beliefs.
I wrote: I believe He also then began giving them eternal spirits. I believe these were the creative acts spoken of in Gen. 1:27.
You wrote: I see. Since you believe that "Bible chronology" pegs Noah's Flood at 2350 B.C., do you also feel that Adam & Eve were created in this manner somewhere around 6000 years ago? Please elaborate.
I believe Adam and Eve were created in the year 4005 B.C. As you may recall, I believe that all the 40s and 400s in the Bible were meant to point to the fact that exactly 4,000 years would pass between the creation of Adam and the birth of Christ. However, I believe Adam and Eve were created in exactly the way Genesis describes their creations. I believe Adam was not "the first man" in an absolute chronological sense. I believe God created Adam and Eve to serve as representatives of the human race and then orchestrated all of the events in Eden to illustrate several important lessons. I believe that when God created Adam from the earth He was illustrating the fact that He had previously created the human race from already existing organic materials, i.e. highly evolved primates. I believe that when God breathed into Adam the breath of life (a Hebrew word which is also translated as "spirit") He was illustrating the fact that He had at a much earlier time began giving eternal spirits to all members of the human race.
I wrote: I believe that from that time on the spirits of all humans who died went "in cold storage until the resurrection," as you say.
You wrote: Please do elaborate. Are you saying that when a human is born (or conceived, or whatever) God creates a "spirit" and somehow attaches it to the physical body? Where do you find justification for these beliefs? Any specific Bible statements? Or are they deductions?
They are mainly deductions. Though I have already presented you with biblical evidence that all humans possess spirits "which return to God who gave them" to us.
You wrote: This entire scene [the Bible's story of Saul contacting the departed spirit of Samuel through a spirit medium - 1 Sam. 28] seems to me to be pure hocus pocus. We have some wild-eyed ancient "witch" going through some motions that "bring up" Samuel. Just how does this "bringing up" work? Who brings it up? Who "awakens" it? Does this happen on command by any human? Or only witches and necromancers?
It was Saul who decided to go to the witch of Endor to try to contact the recently deceased Samuel. He did so even though attempting to contact the dead in such a way was forbidden in the Mosaic Law. I do not believe it is normally possible to speak with the dead in such a way. I believe the Jewish Law forbid attempting to do so because those who attempt to communicate with the dead normally end up contacting conscious spirits, i.e. demons, rather than unconscious ones, i.e. the departed spirits of people. However, I believe in this one possibly very unique instance God allowed someone with the aid of a necromancer to successfully awaken the spirit of a departed human. It seems God did so in order to have the departed spirit of Samuel condemn Saul for his recent actions, by prophesying his death as well as that of his sons the next day in battle.
You wrote: If the "awakened spirit" can speak and think, and has the full memories and personality of the "dead" human to which it was once attached, then the concept of a "resurrection from the dead" takes on a rather different meaning than appears to be the case in many parts of the Bible. For example, when Lazarus died, his "spirit" would have gone into "cold storage" for a short time, and then been "called back" and reattached to a rejuventated physical body, right? How strange that sounds.
I believe "resurrection" occurs when a dead person's spirit is permanently united with a new body of some sort. In the case of Samuel, evidently God allowed his spirit to temporarily inhabit and speak through the body of the witch of Endor. I believe our departed spirits remain unconscious until they are put into a body, much like a piece of computer software remains "inanimate" until it is "animated" by a computer's hardware.
You wrote: And in the end, when all these "spirits" are "resurrected" to a "spiritual plane", just what does that mean? And how do you derive all this from the Bible?
Alan, I could go on and on telling you what I think is probably the case and giving you some verses in scripture which I think may indicate I am on the right track. But what would be the point? The fact of the matter is that the Bible does not provide clear answers to many such questions.
You wrote: Your answer ["I would do whatever God told me to do."] is behind a great deal of evil done in the name of God, Allah or whatever, by those who truly think that God has told them to do something. ... . The results of this philosophy include aberrations in the Jehovah's Witness religion such as causing people to die over the blood transfusion issue, mass killings of Jews and Protestants by various Catholic Inquisitors, burnings of "witches", and even the mass terrorism of an Osama bin Laden engaged in jihad. ...The sad thing is that it all stems from a willingness to obey God, or whoever one believes speaks for God, over and above doing what one otherwise knows is right.
I guess the answer to that is that no one should ever do something that seems wrong to them, even if they think God wants them to do it. For, as I pointed out earlier, no one can ever really be sure that it is "God" who is telling them to do something. After all, as the scriptures tell us, "Satan often appears as an angel of light." But we do know for certain that God has given us our consciences. That being the case, I think we would all do well to always follow them, rather than anyone's possibly mistaken interpretation of the scriptures, or even any "Godly" voice which may pop in our head or "heavenly" vision that may appear to us. If by chance that voice or vision telling us to do something that does not seem right to us really does turn out to be God, I'm sure He will understand that we chose to follow our God given consciences instead.