Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?

by Justitia Themis 129 Replies latest social current

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  Brocephus

  I applaud PEC and Journey-on for actually having the balls to have a rational discussion about this. I am really surprised at how many of you choose to just insult and name call me instead of discuss a serious topic.

  Sammieswife and GommitsK I give you honorable mention. Sammieswife came real close to being honest and intellectual when you said it's a quantum lead to compare defending a unborn fetus from an abortion doctor to defending a loved on from an attacker. You restated my point in a way.

  I agree this shooter made that "quantum leap" in his head somewhere. As Journey-on stated the shooter was so repulsed by the abortions he was right in his own mind. To bash the shoorter or the Doctor as a cold blooded killer is to over simplify a serious matter and ignore the root cause. My question was simple, "Please tell me how late term abortions are not murder?". I indicated I have a lot of emphathetic feelings for the shooters feelings and thinking not his actions. You remind me of the Elders at the KH, bashing me for asking an honest question. Instead of taking the opportunity to be reflective or convincing most of the posters choose to be insulting and trite. It is scary to me how quick a lot of you are to insult and name call when all I was asking for was an honest and mature discussion. A lot of people are here for support and it surprises me how eager some people on here were to label me as "Right wing, Repulican, Rush Limbaughite, Fundamentalist". I would ask you your evidence for calling me such but now I familiar with your logic (or lack of) there is no need to even pose that question.

  As far as the issue; That is interesting Pec I would like to see the numbers on late term abortion. The reason I posed that as the question was because this Doctor worked for one of only three Abortion Clinics that would preform and Abortion after the 21st week. The state of Kansas tried him and lost last year for preforming Abortions past the limit their law allows. As far as saving women's lives, I see no indication that these were anything but elective abortions. I believe any doctor can preform a medically necessary abortion at anytime to save a mother's life. This Doctor had been Bombed and Shot before. He knew these folks were after him as they saw him as the worse of the worse. It's still hard for me to swallow a elective abortion of a 5 and half month old fetus. I would still like to hear any rational arguments as to how that is different from murder. Aren't there babies delivered now at 5 and 6 months that survive now? I am not here calling names or judging. I am not even debating if Abortion is or should be legal. I have done nothing but asked for a rational and reasonable argument to counter my initial feelings on this matter.

  Isn't funny how I am the one just expressing my thoughts and being open minded, yet I am the one being called an close minded extremist bible thumper by 80% of the posters on this board. Uhhhh huh...... yaaaaaaaaaa..... some of yall have some deprogramming left to do from the bORG, I do beleive.
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  sammielee24

  My question was simple, "Was he right to be so replused".

  A person could only answer that based on his/her own ideology. Are we repulsed those citizens who terrorized the innocent people of the villages, who tortured and burned them at the stake for being witches? Are we repulsed by all those innocents in years past who were drawn and quartered by their King? Those killings were motivated by ideology, both rooted in religion. If we don't find those actions repulsive, then what does it say about the progression of society? sammieswife.
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  sammielee24

  I'm not an anti abortion crusader so I wonder how many people like me, would only hear about people like the Doctor in news/entertainment stories like the ones aired by shows like Bill O'Reilly? We have any number of unstable people and this is a button that pushes some - how much or do we think the media contributes to the viewer perception of what goes on? Does this take a person who is walking on the edge and help push him over? sammieswife.

  While many Americans may never have heard of Kansas abortion doctor George Tiller, who was killed Sunday, his name — and nickname, "Tiller the Baby-Killer" — should be familiar to viewers of Fox News' "O'Reilly Factor." Salon's Gabriel Winant reports that Bill O'Reilly has mentioned Tiller on 29 episodes since 2005, most recently in April of this year.

  "There's no other person who bears as much responsibility for the characterization of Tiller as a savage on the loose, killing babies willy-nilly thanks to the collusion of would-be sophisticated cultural elites, a bought-and-paid-for governor and scofflaw secular journalists" than O'Reilly, Winant writes.

  Some of the things O'Reilly has said of Tiller, according to Salon:

  • He "destroys fetuses for just about any reason right up until the birth date for5,000."
  • He's guilty of "Nazi stuff,"
  • a moral equivalent to NAMBLA and al-Qaida
  • "This is the kind of stuff happened in Mao's China, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union"
  • "operating a death mill"
  • "has blood on his hands"
  • "executing babies about to be born"
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  AllTimeJeff

  As Journey-on stated the shooter was so repulsed by the abortions he was right in his own mind. To bash the shoorter or the Doctor as a cold blooded killer is to over simplify a serious matter and ignore the root cause.

  This is a very sensitive issue.

  To be fair, esp when it comes to late term abortions, I don't think anyone wants to see it. As a liberal, I do believe though that even in the case a 3rd trimester abortion, it is still the mothers right to choose this, esp if there is compelling reason medically to do so.

  That is a seperate argument that is ongoing, and in my view, has nothing to do with the murder of this obviously targeted abortion doctor. This whole incident can be viewed symbolicaly for both sides of the issue. Unfortunately, the issue is, murder was committed here.

  To say that this illustrates the need to understand the root cause is to suggest that more killing of abortion doctors will happen until we "understand" this. There is nothing to understand. There are just as many people with their valid reasons to support abortion as there are opponents. You can't try to understand the murder of abortion doctors. People who choose this are wrong.

  If you want to go this far, even Jesus said "turn the other cheek" and told Peter to sheath his sword as he was defending Jesus. Thus there is no biblical mandate for killing abortion doctors. If you believe that these fetuses are victims, then their souls are safe. If you want to help those who are in the very difficult position of an unplanned pregnancy, lets talk about alternatives with the individuals involved. Adoption for instance. Lets look at the health of the fetus and factor this in.

  If your ideology says that abortion is murder, I am more then happy to have that discussion, without the added inference from this incident. This murder IS murder, and it is something that Jesus would have condemned.
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  PEC

  George Richard Tiller (August 8, 1941 – May 31, 2009 [1] [2] ) was a physician from Wichita, Kansas in the United States. He was the medical director of a women's health care clinic in Wichita, Women's Health Care Services, one of only three nationwide which would provide abortion after the 21st week of pregnancy (known as late-term abortion). [3] Some of Tiller's patients discovered late in pregnancy that their fetuses had severe or fatal birth defects, but he also aborted healthy late-term fetuses in cases where this would prevent "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" for the mother. [4]

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

  I know many would prefer that the mother die or be permanently injured, rather than the fetus. Since the fetus would never had existed without the mother, this is completely illogical to me. Why is the mother less important than fetus?

  Philip
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  Justitia Themis

  I am really surprised at how many of you choose to just insult and name call me instead of discuss a serious topic.

  Brocephas, I see that you are new to this board; allow me to say welcome. However, I have to say that I do not see where you were especially attacked or called names. This is not the KH. You can expect that your opinions and statements will be agressively tested and, at times, disagreed with. You can expect that errors in your logic will be identified and addressed.

  What happened to you on this thread happens in college classes and boardrooms everyday to anyone who raises his or her hand and issues an opinion...at least it does in the best classes and boardrooms..and it's a GOOD thing. In my experience, this was one of the more unemotional theads related to abortion, so if you are struggling with this on, you might struggle on this board.
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  SixofNine

  Let's be reasonable folks; you're not fully human until you can poop, and normal fetusesesses don't poop in the womb.

  I know many would prefer that the mother die or be permanently injured, rather than the fetus. Since the fetus would never had existed without the mother, this is completely illogical to me. Why is the mother less important than fetus?

  Right? The weird thing is, it's usually bible thumbers who go this route - but the bible is actually pretty reasonable on the matter (no doubt because the ancients understood from nature that god miscarries, ie: "aborts" babies all the time, and on a whim). In the bible, life begins not with poop, but with "breath".
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  Brocephus

  PEC I appreciate you sharing with me your thoughts on why a late term aborition is not murder. Religous or moral principles aside I think chosing between the mother or your child and your child would be torture. On one hand I could be inclined to agree with you but on the other it seems unnatural to not sacrifice the older generation for the next. But what about if the procedure is purely elective, a matter of contraception and convience? Should terminating a fetus that could be viable at 5 1/2 months still not be considered murder? Regardless, it gives me something to think about.

  Sixofnine I am not sure if the "you aren't alive till you poop" theory is serious or not. Due to the scarcity of other arguments I will treat as sincere. When I think about it, there is something that makes sense. But, I am not sure if the poop theory holds for me in the end. At 5 1/2 months the fetus is not "pooping" but it is considered viable. It can be removed from the womb in a C-section and birthed or it can be disected and removed through an abortion. If it "poops" or not would not necessarily indicate life or not to me considering those facts.

  It has been assumed by posters on this thread that I am a "prick" "fundamentalist" "Rush Limbaugh supporter" "Bible Thumper", just becuase I shared some feelings about a news story and asked a serious question. If you disagree with my "feelings" that is fine, I never expected any to agree. However please notice I have managed to support my position and feelings with logic and facts. I never mentioned "sin", "Jesus" , "Rush Limbaugh" or the "Bible" I found Justitia's comment about college funny as I was beginning to think I was the only on this board that went to college.

  Sammieswife gets half credit. She managed to articulate that she clearly did not believe late term abortion was murder but went on to bash Bill Oreilly which has nothing to do with my question before giving her logic. I don't like Bill Oreilly either and he would be a bad person for me to ask why a late term abortion is not murder. He clearly supports the other side!

  The rest of you have failed Professor Brocephus' exam today. One of the things you are made to do in college is sucessfully argue for an issue with which you do not agree personally. It teaches detatchment and reasoning which makes you a stronger debater for something you do believe in, hopefully. My intention was not to educate anyone. However, I was dissapointed. The JW's really screwed us by talking us out of college.
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  sammielee24

  One must assume that the laws of a society are a reflection of their civilization. An abortion doctor is we assume, working under the rule of law. Some people believe that his service is a necessary one and so he is allowed under the law to practice it. Some others, notably fundamentalist religion groups, do not believe that he has a right to provide his service even if it has been approved by the laws of the society they live in. Some of those people, choose to call such a doctor a murderer. A person trained and taught to save lives and take lives and who does so legally. They provide a service.

  On the other hand, some of those same people, support the military of the exact same society they live in and without hesitation or question - yet the military personnell are also trained and taught to save lives and take lives. They do so legally. They provide a service.

  Why is it that a person who would kill a doctor for his service feel no hesitation in supporting a soldier for his? Why does a person who would kill a doctor not inject the same sort of fundamental rage against the soldier who kills small children as part of his service? Why would a person shoot a doctor but never shoot a soldier? sammieswife.

  In a progressive and law abiding society, we have to enact laws that serve the majority but not all laws are going to fit the ideology of the citizenry.

  sammieswife.
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  PEC

  But what about if the procedure is purely elective, a matter of contraception and convience? Should terminating a fetus that could be viable at 5 1/2 months still not be considered murder?

  This is not a issue; because, Dr. Tiller practiced in Kansas and it is illegal to perform an elective abortion after the 21st week in Kansas.

  Why would a person shoot a doctor but never shoot a soldier?

  Because the soldier, will probably shoot back.

  Philip