Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject... (page 9)

mraimondi

the same DNA? lol

i love it how begetting is clearly understanding one point whilst totally ignoring the fact that if you beget something, you are seperate from it, and older (and in more authority) than it.

lol

mraimondi

i think people get caught up in semantics here too.

fact is, the trinity is a bolted-on doctrine.

These scholars arguing against the Trinity and flexing their considerable scriptural dexterity reminds me of the thousands of scholars who repeatedly write dissertations, hold conferences, lobby the physics establishment etc etc because they've 'proved' e=mc2 to be wrong.

reniaa

hi guys I went to bed and missed the later points.

You do accept then the bible and Jehovah himself allows that people can be called god without being The God?

the bible sets the precedent that although there is one true God that people and things can be called Gods and we are not just talking false gods here but people like moses who Jehovah said would be 'a god' pharoah and shows powers given to him by God to back this up?

I have two choices I can goto the bible explanation for the apparent contradiction of Jesus being called 'a god' or god in various places or I can try and make my own explanation of this!

Trinity doctrine is not a bible explanation for this problem but a man-made logical construct which has absolutely no scriptural scriptural back up.

lets make one thing clear when trinitarians try and construct trinity they do it in parts because the bible shows no whole for them to use.

here bible john is falling into the trap that he thinks if you can prove Jesus is god that thats half the trinity and he only then has to tag on the holy spirit to prove the rest of it!

but this is not how the bible works john 1:1 says there only 2 people involved God and the word they were there from beginning together where is the third person holy spirit mentioned? It isn't so here the scripture only allows two actual Persons involved and yet we know holy spirit God's power was used to create things so it must have been around surely? is this an error? was the third equal person just forgotten in this scripture? or is it that the holy spirit is legitimately god's power as the bible describes and therefore doesn't have to be mentioned as a person in this scripture because it literally isn't a person!

But wait you will say it doesn't matter if spirit is NEVER shown in person with God and Jesus, it is sometimes talked of as being a person by certain scriptures so it must be a person!

but then here we goto proverbs 8 you deny this is Jesus because it's wisdom a female who is not Jesus!

So wisdom is a female person? a person who was given birth by God and was with god from the beginning as described by proverbs?

Did you know the original trinity doctrine from 3rd century before caesar put his stamp on it was that the three were......God, Son and ....wisdom

because they played the rule that if it is personified and can talk it must be a person.....

So here we have four persons running around at the beginning apparently we have God, his son, holy Ghost and female wisdom and yet again john 1:1 only refers to God and his son! you gotta wonder where the other two are and what they are getting upto!!!!!!

lol this is the problem when you start deciding with mens explanations what something means rather than goto the scriptural explanation!

passwordprotected

Reniaa, don't you have 3 kids to get breakfast for?

reniaa

hi hi password I quickly wrote that while the kids were eating hehe

I'm going to later look at some of the other responses, I think now arhue argue while the bible allows others to be called 'god' 'a god'while not being God they are arguing Jesus is special unique superlative god to try and attach him to Jehovah and yet in the video this superlative argument was shut down by bible jim when the Jehovah's witnesses were trying to show Jehovah is "One true God" also in a special superlative way.

You cannot allow one explanation for yourself while denying the other side the same argument. Once you say superlative can apply then Jehovah is the One True God, the one Almighty God among other gods and so this blows out the superlative argument on Jesus ' a god'

middleman

"i love it how begetting is clearly understanding one point whilst totally ignoring the fact that if you beget something, you are seperate from it, and older (and in more authority) than it."

Well, I have heard scholars speak of Jesus as being eternally begotten from well, eternity. Wrap your mind around that one. In a finite way we can look at the time it takes light photons from the sun and stars to reach our field of view. You can have/see all the apparent "ages' of light particles but in fact are all the SAME source, that can be seen as past, present, and future depending on your location eg from a mountain, from a plane, on the ground, from outerspace, North Pole, equator etc...I think you get my point. Now magnify that and take all time, space, and matter away...and yes that's eternity with no reference point.

Concluding with my light application is this. Lets examine the sun's attributes. The sun is the source of the rays of light photons but the rays are not the sun but proceed from the sun, the energy from the rays are not the light photons or the sun but guess what...they are the essence of the source. So we have the Sun (Father), light photons (Son), and energy (Holy Spirit) all distinct of each other but yes...you got it, ALL the same essence and substance.

Blessings...

Chalam

Hi reniaa,

Thanks for your posts concerning Proverbs 8.

hi chalam you say you believe proverbs is Jesus because that explains that Jesus was the beginning of Jehovah creation therefore he could be with him from the begining.

I am afraid although I believe Proverbs 8 clearly speaks of Jesus, the conclusion I draw from the verses is likely totally different to that of JWs that I have spoken to. Indeed, a JW raised this issue as we discussed Jesus at my own house. So what do you understand from these verses?

Proverbs 8:22-31 (New International Version)

22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

It might be difficult for us to have a meaningful discussion in this open forum for the obvious issues, first and foremeost the number of posts that you need to respond to in just this thread alone would be a full time job!

However, if we are to have a meaningful discussion then you need to consider and respond to the questions I have posed already.

If you prefer to do this via PM I am quite happy to.

All the best,

Stephen

reniaa

hi guys I will try answering a few point but their are so many :s and I have limited timed.

hi chalam your right it is difficult to answer all when some need only repetition of points previously made. thx for understanding. tuesday asked me to comment on the video which led me to the conclusion it was a staged production to elucidate bible Jim's version of trinity which he admits is his own because it involves what he himself has decided things mean.

Or it was two inexperienced witnesses drawn in over their heads by a man well versed in basic Jehovah's witness arguments and deliberately manipulate the conversation shutting down when the first one is just about to make a point and changing subject also using old witness publications against them. and cutting off older one words by addressing the younger man who is clearly represented as a recent publisher maybe not even baptised yet.

The camera set up and the Jw publications suggest some pre-planning to this youtube whether real or set up.

Bible Jim clearly has his own unique version of trinity which isn't unusual trinity has many versions to it. Can something supposedly describing the 'nature of God' have so many versions of it? that are different depending of the viewpoint of the person describing their version of trinity. If something can change from man to man doesn't this itself point to it being man-made and not from god?

Yizuman

reniaa

Can you limit the ability of God?

Yiz

Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

Proverbs 8:22-31 (New International Version)

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