You might be able to get Bible Jim to send you a copy in one file.
Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...
by Tuesday 347 Replies latest watchtower bible
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isaacaustin
hi chalam 'exact representation' 'exact likeness' 'image'
these all actually prove Jesus isn't God none of these can be the original. just like man is made in the image of god but he too isn't god. image is not the original.
If you are like something you are like it but you are not it.
when you represent something you are not it.
these are simple proofs that Jesus is not God.
My reply: Reniaa, after looking thru this post...and all the 'proof texts' you have thrown out to try to disprove the trinity...the only thing you have disproved is modalism- the 3 being the same person. And none of us beleived that anyway. You have done nothing (nor could you) to show that Jesus and the Father do not share the same nature and operate as one spiritual flesh.
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Mary
I normally don't bother getting involved in the debate of the Trinity as for the most part, I see it a futile argument. For myself, I do not believe that Jesus is God. This is one of the very, very few doctrines that the WT teaches that I still subscribe to. When I started going to church, I had a discussion with one of the ministers and he brought the subject up. He said that he could show me a dozen scriptures proving that Jesus is God. I said I could show him a dozen proving that he wasn't.
The main reason I don't subscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity is simple logic. First of all, Jesus was a Jew and the Jews worshipped a monothesis God, not a triune God. I fail to understand how God could go from being one in the OT to being three in the NT.
I'm not so blind though to know that there ARE in fact, numerous scriptures that seem to promote the idea that Jesus is God. My own personal opinion on this (and it is only that---an opinion) is that in the 20 or so years from when Jesus died to when his followers started to pen their writings, that Jesus went from being the Messiah to God himself in some peoples minds. It wasn't unusual at all to deify a charismatic person who had a true compassion for the downtrodden and who died an early death. In fact, we still do it today. (Who doesn't remember the weeks following Princess Diana's tragic death when there were calls to promote her to Sainthood)? That Jesus stood up to corrupt officials, gave hope to those who had no hope, treated women with respect and was not afraid to call a spade a spade, could easily get his status elevated in the months and years following his execution and I believe that that is what we are seeing in some of the NT writings.
The biggest mistake the WTS made though, is interpreting John 1:1 as: 'the Word was a god.' Totally stupid translation. They should have simply translated it in the perfectly acceptable: "the Word was divine" and they could have saved themselves alot of grief and embarassment.
The argument could go back and forth, back and forth forever simply because there are scriptures that support BOTH sides.
Just my two cents worth.
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reniaa
hi booby
you said I would make coal 'white' if I could even though it is black and then mention trinity admitting yourself it isn't in the bible. don't you think then that it is not me trying to make coal white? I am arguing that when God says Jesus is his son he actually is just his son! I am arguing that the coal is black!
Trinity by not being biblical as a word and more importantly as a described doctrine is the one trying to say Coal is 'white', it is trying to put something in the bible that isn't there.
Trinity is a mis-matched mix of odd scriptures and part scriptures fitted together like a jigsaw trying to prove Jesus is God, then looking for scriptures to prove holy spirit is God but none describing the 3 as God in one then ends up creating a lot of oxymorons that you then need a lot of rhetoric to hide.
Trinity also changes from christian religion to christian religion, from man to man it has many different versions and explanations by the men, they use physical things to describe this god trinity like eggs/sun/water/light they are keeping God to their own earthly design of him.
This for me shows trinity is clearly man-made. truth does not need different versions!
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misguided
not being biblical as a word and more importantly as a described doctrine is the one trying to say Coal is 'white', it is trying to put something in the bible that isn't there
Kind of like JWs explaining the fact they kill kids with their blood doctrine!
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isaacaustin
The use of physical things (egg, water, the earth, etc...) all break down when trying to describe the trinity and the nature of God. This is not surprising...since God is infinite and creation is finite, there is a disconnect there. However, this does not show the concept of the trinity to be man-made...it only shows an illustration to explain it to be thus. Denying Jesus divinity creates many unanswerable issues- which the WT tries to cover and ends up looking silly.
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isaacaustin
Mary, I completely respect your stance there. I never have, nor would I ever try to change you on that. You have thought this thru without the WT glasses and come to a conclusion. There is nothing wrong there. The JWs, and the attitude promulgated by Reniaa here is much different. They arrogantly use that as a tenet they declare to be 100% correct, AND judge all others by it as wrong, pagan, not the truth..etc. This (to them) somehow becomes a major bullet point in a laundry list as to how to know if someone is a true Christian or not. Of course, no one has ever been able to show me Scripturally where this laudry list is authorized.
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Chalam
Hi,
For those who believe Jesus is not God but "a god", what do you make of these verses?
Revelation 22
The River of Life
1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
Who will the saints see face to face?
Whose sits on the throne of God?
Whose name will be on the foreheads of the saints?
All the best,
Stephen
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reniaa
Isaacaustin-hi chalam 'exact representation' 'exact likeness' 'image'
these all actually prove Jesus isn't God none of these can be the original. just like man is made in the image of god but he too isn't god. image is not the original.
If you are like something you are like it but you are not it.
when you represent something you are not it.
these are simple proofs that Jesus is not God.
My reply: Reniaa, after looking thru this post...and all the 'proof texts' you have thrown out to try to disprove the trinity...the only thing you have disproved is modalism- the 3 being the same person. And none of us beleived that anyway. You have done nothing (nor could you) to show that Jesus and the Father do not share the same nature and operate as one spiritual flesh.
hi isaac you found me :)
Sorry I'm not buying it! my words above work for all version of the trinity god unless you are say there is more than One God and that would make you polytheistic without doubt and so biblically wrong.
if you are the image/or like/ or represent something you are not it.
Do you believe Jesus is The true God according to your version of trinity? If you believe he is then the above scriptures apply because you cannot be like God and be God at the same time.
Even if you think God is 3 'who's in One What' a title/postion that son/father/holy ghost separate persons all share You are still trying to say God itself is One so if something is like that God it still isn't God. If something is the image of that god it still isn't God like Man isn't god by virtue of being the 'image' of God.
We've talk on nature before and I posted something I found that clearly shows the word in greek is actually 'form' which again is akin to be a likeness to God not God himself.
Nature comes into it when you goto Greek philosophy which early trinitarians were heavily influenced by and that is where all this metaphysical nature comes from,
but the bible is very Pure it say Jesus is LIKE god, it says he is 'with God', it says he is sent by God. It says God is his head. it says Jesus is co-heirs with man to God, it says Jesus will give authority back to God, It say Jesus is on the righthand of God, it says Jesus is Gods Son, and yes it even says Jesus is 'a god' like the angels in psalms are
Psalm 82:1 (English Standard Version)
1 ( B ) God ( C ) has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of ( D ) the gods he ( E ) holds judgment:but it never says Jesus is The Almighty God, Jesus himself only admitted to being God's son, it says Jesus is Gods messenger
John 13:16
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.Reniaa
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Chalam
Hi,
The main reason I don't subscribe to the doctrine of the Trinity is simple logic. First of all, Jesus was a Jew and the Jews worshipped a monothesis God, not a triune God. I fail to understand how God could go from being one in the OT to being three in the NT.
Try Genesis 1 and John 1. The OT points to Jesus, the NT reveals Him.
Jesus is the same, yesterday and tomorrow as is the Father. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega as is the Father. How can Jesus be the beginning if He wasn't there?!
Hebrew scollars new plurality of "one God" even before Jesus came and the New Testament was written. Some even knew of the triune nature.
All the best,
Stephen