Marry Christmas Jan-evolution goes down in flames

by clash_city_rockers 75 Replies latest jw friends

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Oh deary deary dear;

    One thing I find amusing about creationist websites is that they rarely, if ever, link to sites putting forth opposing claims. Evolutionist sites refuting creationist claims LOVE linking to creationist websites - look at the following example;

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/johnson.html

    In this, an essay on Johnson's book, there are links to four web pages where Johnson or other creationists make their claims. Funny how creationists hide the evidence their opponents put forth and evolutionists publish it. How ... honest ... good to know the 'truth' has nothing to hide, eh?

    I'll chop through some of this as I haven't got all day - the above link deals with Johnson well, and then we have...

    Like Johnson, Denton points out that Darwinism is not a fact.
    This is where the misleading statements and lack of real knowledge about the issue raise their head. No one, I think, at least no reputable scientist, has ever claimed Darwinism is a fact. It is a theory to explain the evidence[b/], one of several [b]theories, some of which are by no means mutually exclusive. Anyone who had ever studied evolution itself, rather than making a special study of the refutation of evolution, would not make this mistake.

    It is a mechanistic theory that is still without a mechanism. While moths and fruit flies do respond to environmental stimuli, our observations of this process have been unable to shed any light on the means by which we have come to have horses and woodpeckers and wasps.
    This is either an outright lie, or perhaps another instance of the writer basing his arguement on the writing of people refuting evolution rather than any real knowledge of the subject itself. Speciation has been observed [ http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html , http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html ]. We have evidence, from Darwin's finshes, to the fauna of Papua, from the speciation event that gave rise to the difference between Benobos and Chimpanzees, to artifical selection (animal husbandry), to fruit-flies, to humans, over the VARIETY of mechanisms, be they environmental, geographical, chronological, mutational, and more, that evolution takes place.

    The origin of complex adaptations has remained a mystery. The fossil record is pockmarked with gaps in the most embarrassing places. Darwin predicted innumerable transitional forms between major groups of organisms, yet the few transitions that are suggested are surrounded in controversy.
    More lies;

    transitional fossils? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
    macroevolution? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html , http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
    gaps? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html
    complex structures? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/vision.html

    The writer of the post would save themselves the embaressment of repeating distotions they have read elsewhere if they actually studied the subject that they are attacking themselves rather than leaving it to other people whose motives often seem uncertain.

    Another "fact" that fails to withstand Denton's scrutiny is the assumption that similar biological structures owe their similarity to a common ancestry. Homology, which studies these similarities, assumes for example that the forelimbs of amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals are similar in structure because they evolved from the same source. Denton reveals, however, that these same classes of vertebrates go through remarkably different stages of early embryological development. This was certainly not a prediction of Darwinian evolution.
    Errr... this fact does not contradict the 'prediction of Darwinian evolution' (define what that is, just to show us you can).

    Even more importantly, Denton reports that comparison of the sequences of proteins from different organisms actually supports the pre-Darwin system of classification, which was based on creationist principles.
    He states it, but if he told you a bucket of shit was icecream, would you eat it?

    At the molecular level, Denton discredits himself by quoting Emile Zuckerkandl to show that "it is now generally conceded by protein chemists that most functional proteins would be difficult to reach or interconvert through a series of successive individual amino acid mutations"(Denton, 1985, p. 320). Zuckerkandl's quote (Zuckerkandl, 1975, p. 21) seems quite damning to the casual reader, but when one reads the entire article, one finds out that Zuckerkandl largely contradicts Denton. By Zuckerkandl's analysis, most advanced functional proteins cannot interconvert directly, and cannot be reached by some saltational mechanisms, but that they certainly can each be reached through gradual evolution from a common ancestor.
    [Above quote from a larger article debunking Denton on http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/denton.html]

    The top most link deals with Johnson, but there's a few things that caught my eye in the post;

    In other words, anything that smells of God must be creationist and must be stamped out.
    This highlights the internal opinion of the writer; that if evolution is right, there is no god. There are loads of people who believe in god AND evolution. They just don't belive that the Bible is literal. But if you did that, I suppose you'd have to make a lot of other decisions about what's right and wrong, by using your brain and morals, rather than a religious text book written by Bronze-Age goatherds. I suppose you look down on people who believe in god AND evoltuion as well... how... Christian...

    Conclusion
    In summary, I have pointed out that many critical predictions of Darwinian evolution have not been fulfilled. As a result, naturalistic atheism, the underlying philosophy of much of the evolutionary establishment, has been threatened.
    No, you haven't. And no it hasn't. You've trotted out a few books that have made no impact whatsoever upon the sceintific world as they are inacurate. You've also demonstarted you are arguing about a subject you know nothing about. Look at the reaction you made to the question about why whales have hind legs! Why don't you look for something from a creationist website to answer this, just as we provide answers to your drivel? TEll you what, I'd love it if you found ANYTHING on the subject, and here's a few more you won't be able to answer OR find creationist answers too;

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/stumpers.html
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fabnaq.html

    The response of many evolutionists has been to issue increasingly dogmatic statements that appeal to authority, not to evidence, play semantic word games where evolution is called both a fact and a theory, and wage an educational filibuster aimed at squelching all dissent.
    In a just world your tounge would fall out for using the word filibuster in any other context than yourself. This above statement is a lie. I thought good Christian's didn't lie. Please find me one article where a evolutionist only makes appeals to authority and sites no evidence. And remember, a scientists appeal to authority is something like 'so and so has proved x', where they are merely citing the evidence that so and so has gathered, not the fact that so and so is so and so. You mention Johnsons a Doctor like we are gonna piss ourselves over his mighty brian.

    The evolutionists are not likely to abandon these tactics anytime soon, but until they do, they can expect even more criticism from scholars such as Professor Philip Johnson
    Hahahahahahahahahahaha... oh deary deary deary dear... criticism on fashion from a man in a kipper tie... Oooooo!

    Say 'Hi' and give him the URL, I'd love to talk to him. Or you could give him the topmost URL, and he could knock up a response to the critique of his book and post it here...

    Now, you seem very worried by 'our' theory of evolution.

    What I am curious about is how you know that your theory of god is correct. Or do you think you have the facts about god? If so, prove it... I have a Hindu next door and dozens of Muslims in the company who would be fascinated to know why you are right and they are wrong.

    Oh, but, if you are right and they are wrong, you are being dogmatic! Wow! You wouldn't want that!! Of course you could cite some evidence about why you are right. Evidence. You now, things that prove something was somewhere at sometime, that kind of thing. What do you mean you've got a book? Hell, my Hindu friend next door has got an older book, and ask any Muslim and they'll tell you the Quaran is superior to the Bible. I'm sure I can find a Mormom, they've got a book, and, well Scientologists have LOADS of books.

    Anything other than a book? Lots of people believe it. Nah, you wouldn't say that, that's an appeal to authority. In anycase, I think more Muslims attend 'services' than Christians, so that's no proof.

    Archaelogical evidence? Wow, you mean a book written thousands of years ago gets some historical facts right? Woohoo! But the Quaran does that too!

    And it, just like the Bible, and Bhagadvavita, is demonstrably not a literal view of the world.

    The sooner you get over that, the sooner you'll realise how big god might be if he actually exists.

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • Julie
    Julie

    The thing that gets me about this debate (even though one side is so incredibly weak I'll still grant it "debate" status) is that the creationists will pick at all these details on evolution. This or that tiny flaw makes it all wrong--in the view of the creationist. On the other hand, the problem with creation is, first and foremost, we have two versions. Yes, in Genesis we have one version right after the other, each with it's own distinct order of what was created when. The bible can't even get it straight. Ok, putting that aside (which is what creationists seem to do so effortlessly), we have all these other questions. God supposedly made man in his own image, right? Except he made us stupid. Yep, the only thing seperating us from God was knowledge. We were perfect while we were stupid, so the story goes.

    The creationist would have us believe we were Perfect until that bitch Eve screwed up everything for all of mankind for all time. LOL What an assinine concept!!! Then we have the knotty issue of man's fall from grace (again, thanks to Woman). All-knowing, all-loving God, *knew* beforehand that we would screw up, right? What kind of sadistic ego-maniac would create us, knowing we would be so displeasing to him, subject "his people" (and countless others) to the horrors known as the old testament, and then, to rectify all these avoidable (at least by an omnipotenet being) miseries, send "his son" to be massacred? You are free to do so but I cannot bring myself to believe in much less worship such a lunatic.

    I recount all of this nonsense that creationists swallow hook, line and sinker--as fantastic and unbelievable as it all is--to demonstrate how incredibly foolish they look squabbling over this or that minute detail that hasn't yet been figured out in the evolution field.

    Just think, if it weren't for religion making sure mankind didn't progress for many centuries, not only would we likely have all details on evolution and much more science, there's no telling where in the universe we may have been to by now.

    Oh, and by the way Simpleton Clash, it's "Merry Christmas". Merry is "happy", marry means to wed. Yeah, you're so ready for the big time, not!!

    Go read some books will ya? And I don't mean the kind where a fundy talks like a zealot about what he/she believes, I mean something objective. Big word I know but you'll figure it out after you get over the whole merry-marry lesson.

    Never ceasing to be amazed--
    Julie

  • freeman
    freeman

    Clash,

    I understand your dilemma; many of us have had to adjust our thinking according to the way things are as opposed to how we would like them to be. Quite frankly, at some level I still wish Evolution were ‘just a theory’. And at some level, I still want to believe that the WTBTS is God’s exclusive organization and that all that they dispense to their adherents is true, and real, and would find fulfillment within my lifetime. But at some point IT IS TIME TO GROW UP! At some point one must face reality, EVOLUTION IS A FACT, the evidence from so many diverse fields of science is just overwhelming.

    Since it is hard for most people to fathom the power of evolution to change a species over great periods of time, try looking at it on a scale that is directly observable within even your own short lifetime. Try looking at microevolution.

    Learn why it is important to completely finish the antibiotics your doctor has prescribed you. And learn why pesticides should be used sparingly. Learn and understand that modern medicine, and modern farmers must deal with the fact of evolution every day and that is why newer and more powerful antibiotics and pesticides are created to replace older ones that bacteria and simple insects have evolved a resistance to.

    Understand and learn to accept that these small changes are passed on to the next generation and that the changes are driven by natural selection. Now use the math you learned in school and apply it to evolution. Small inheritable changes driven and multiplied by natural selection over long periods of time equal large changes. It’s that simple. Not to berate you, but grow up, face facts and stop looking to find an easy way out. Nobody wants to leave his or her comfort zone, but we all had to at some point, and so must you. Just my 2 cents.

    Freeman

  • KSJordan
    KSJordan

    JanH said: "What is it about you cretinists that make you go around creating new threads all the time instead......." and "No use running away or posting new threads, little cretinist coward. I will repeat the question as often as I need to."

    How typical of JanH to call people who dare to disagree with him names. He was emailing me and calling me names. If anyone is interested in seeing his very ugly name-calling emails, let me know. But it is typical of HIS kind to name-call people to try and direct attention away from the truth and to keep people from investigating and making up their OWN mind. JanH really should have stayed in the borg as he is very controlling and gets mad and name-calls if you dare to have your own opinion!!!

  • KSJordan
    KSJordan

    JanH also likes to twist the words and meanings of what people say around which is typical of an abuser and controller.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    freeman; very considered post, nice...

    KSJordan; you miss the point. Clash has studiously avoided answering certain questions, whereas each point he has made has been refuted. This behaviour is typical of creationists; not all, but many.

    They come here, say they can disprove evolution, and then show that they don't even know what evolution is, really, and that they have gathered a collection of quotes that they are told refute evolution, when they don't even really know that much about evolution, so are making arguements that they don't really understand at times.

    Not all are this bad, but as this happens about eight times each month, it gets very dull. It gets on my nerves too.

    Remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Find me one place where any evolutionist says otherwise.

    However, you are not entitled to your own facts. If you espouse a pattern of belief that seems contrary to the facts, you will attract ridicule. If I genuinely believed in Santa, people would laugh at me.

    Now, I can't prove god doesn't exist, as it's an impossibility to PROVE something that doesn't exist doesn't exist. But I can prove that evolution took place, by one mechanism (theory), or another, or a whole combination of mechanisms.

    I don't think you can explain the evidence in any other way.

    Please, feel free to do so. Or feel free to refute my post above and the referenced material.

    Please also feel free to answer the questions I asked Clash about religion.

    Please also feel free to do what so many creationists do at this point in the discussion, and run away.

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • rem
    rem

    Oh boy, the trolls are really out in force this week. Is it a full moon or something?

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • KSJordan
    KSJordan

    Abaddon, I did not miss the point. My point was JanH could have disagreed WITHOUT resorting to name-calling. Like you and other have disagreed without name-calling anyone. That was MY point.

  • JWMAN
    JWMAN

    Please:

    You did not come from apes! Comeback to Jehovah!!

  • Mr Ben
    Mr Ben
    Learn why it is important to completely finish the antibiotics your doctor has prescribed you. And learn why pesticides should be used sparingly. Learn and understand that modern medicine, and modern farmers must deal with the fact of evolution every day and that is why newer and more powerful antibiotics and pesticides are created to replace older ones that bacteria and simple insects have evolved a resistance to.

    Freeman,

    Thou art not free but a SLAVE! Thou fool! Knowest thou that Satan is the God of the AIR! Give up thou damndest antibiotics. Can you not READ? ANTI-biotic = ANTI-Christ!

    It is BECAUSE farmers attempt pest control under the misguided influence of that SATANIC (you will burn!!!) & FALSE THEORY! That is why we have an INCREASE IN FAMINE! If they would only put faith in the TRUE god (not those nasty evil “gods” of the other FALSE “faiths”) and PRAY for the health of there crops, then the TRUE god would bless them, indeed, unto an ABUNDENCE!

    As for that great SATANIC DECEPTION called VACCINES…

    Moreover, “It has never been proven that a single disease is due to germs.”
    Golden Age 24/1/16 p.250

    Only when will mankind ceases to listen to Satan’s Science and turns back to FAITH will we begin advancing once again!

    AMEN

    Pastor Bluster

    Religion n.
    An organisation designed to promote atheism.

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