Marry Christmas Jan-evolution goes down in flames

by clash_city_rockers 75 Replies latest jw friends

clash_city_rockers

Windy, David and Abaddon,
Look the point I am trying to drive home here is the logical conclusion to those who are Aithiest. The Aithiest has NO STANDARD for right or wrong. Now this doesn't mean that ALL athiest think that lawless evil like killing and raping are O.K. But he has no ground other than the Christian World View (which he rejects) but he borrows capitol from to say such evils are wrong in fact with out the true biblical God one can not determan good from evil, again by what standard is he going to judge?
Look, one athiest guy might say, "hey, murder and rape are wrong" but how can he justify them to be wrong in his athiest world view? His athiestic evolutionist comrade might say "there is nothing morally wrong with murder and rape, I woulden't do it because I'll go to jail, but as far as there is a absolute moral standard, there really isn't one just arbratrary conventions that change from time to time."
Now on what ground is the athiest going to refute the cliams of his athiestic evolutionist compadre? Borrow from what he rejects, (Christianity? That would be self-refuting.
The question for the Athiest is "If there is NO ABSOLUTE MORAL OR ETHICAL STANDERD, then why should I or anyone reject the evils of murder and rape as being morraly wrong?"
David, this is what you can learn take the assertions from these guys and turn it around on them show them that they can not live by them. Demonstrait the inconsistancy of thier system what we call (dielectical tentions or internal contradictions) in there own system which they want to hold you bondage to(what WT terrany with out the WT).
David, let the scriptures be your standard to judge other people's motives as well as yourself I'll e-mail you privetly to give advise as to where to get started.
As for Abaddon, she is self-refutting and is could care less of what any bible believing christian has to say. In short, she is just as dishonest as the WT Governing Body. She just regurgitates other peoples material she is not even well read. As for Jan, I'm not intimadated by him, I wish he lived near by so I could go over his house and give him the gospel.
Personally I don't wish these people ill will not at all, I would love to meet them and maybe take them out for lunch.
Abaddon,
You mentioned in another post that the bible does not teach calvinism.
Response: Pleeeeeeese, You don't even believe in the bible and yet YOU are going to tell me what doctrines are in the bible whan you yourself do not believe the bible. You don't even know the issues and why the synod og Dort was convined.
1. Who was Palagius?
2. Who was Jacob Arminius?
3. What are the major tennents of Arminianism?
4. Why is Free willism a gateway to leagalism and moralism?
5. Why is calvinism the only defender of Christian Liberty?
rem, why do run away from an offer of free beer, food and the gospel? Oh, yah while we are guzzling beers well also have Phil Johnson there too to refute your claims of devisiveness and distroy evolution over a nice cold Hieniken and Paragas Double Corona.....
snuggles,
jr......................
rem

Clash,
Since when does Evolution have anything to do with morals? There are several standards of ethics that don't rely upon the Christian god or any god. Just because you are ignorant of them doesn't mean they don't exist. How did people know right from wrong before Christianity and Judaism? Even atheistic societies (though unfortunately Communistic) have laws and standards.
Usually society in general sets down the framework for what is acceptable and what is not. Personally people may add or subtract from the framework, depending on their own value system. This system may include the bible, the quran, or perhaps the person's own philosophy to treat others as they would like to be treated. There are no absolute morals, but nobody lives in a vacuum. We all live within localized moral pockets, as it were in spacetime.
By the way, Abaddon is a guy. And enough please with the Pop Quizes, eh. Let's not be ridiculous.
rem, why do run away from an offer of free beer, food and the gospel? Oh, yah while we are guzzling beers well also have Phil Johnson there too to refute your claims of devisiveness and distroy evolution over a nice cold Hieniken and Paragas Double Corona.....
I choose not to associate with intellectually dishonest people. Show me one article where Johnson has claimed to be a Young Earth Creationist. Show one article where Johnson has dismissed the fact that life has evolved. You cannot. You can only show where Johnson tries to refute the accepted mechanism for evolution - that is "materialistic" Natural Selection.
rem
PS: For more information on Johnson see http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/johnson.html . It is obvious from his writings that he does not take issue with the fact that evolution has occured. He feels that god helped it along, instead of it being unguided by random mutation and Natural Selection.
"We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
D wiltshire

Clash,
I'm sorry I misjudged you.
You have a Good approach.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
AlanF

I just love this kind of "what's the basis of atheists' moral standards" non-argument -- as if the question itself proves something.
The simple fact is that in an absolute sense, all moral standards are arbitrary. That includes God's. Why? Simple. Consider the question, "What is the basis of God's moral standard?" The Christian answer boils down to "God". Well duh! If God is his own moral standard, then that's a self-referential standard that simply says "God does whatever he pleases". Thus the standard is arbitrary.
It is the ultimate hypocrisy to allow for God's arbitrary moral standard and then claim that no one else can possibly have a standard apart from God. They're all arbitrary.
To prove this is easy. Challenge a self-righteous Christian with this: What if God told you to kill your children because it would please him. Would you obey? Why or why not? What if God told you to kill thousands around you and gave you the weapons to do it. Would you obey? Why or why not? Now keep going with any cherished Christian moral standard. Are there any such standards that a 'faithful' Christian would not violate if instructed directly by God? No, because self-righteous Christians in reality have only one standard -- obedience to God. All else is a mere pretense of morality. It's no different from the standards of Jehovah's Witnesses, whose only real measure of faith is their degree of obedience to JW leaders, namely, the Governing Body and its minions.
Note that in the above I'm talking about self-righteous Christians of the sort who prance around condemning everyone who doesn't believe or behave exactly as they want. There are plenty of decent Christians around who don't subscribe to the Fundy/Calvinist nonsense. Thank God for that!
AlanF
larc

Of course, embedded in Alan's questions to you regarding morality as defined by your Biblical God, is the fact that your God has asked his believers to kill their own children and he has asked his true believers to kill thousands of others. Now, just between you and me and the fence post, you already knew that now didn't you. Nod, nod, wink, wink, I won't tell if you don't.
Satanus

Clash
Christians jump to false conclusions, and you are no exception. Is fear [of god] the only thing that keeps people civilized? Can't atheists love as well? Don't they as well have respect for others? Do you see bands of atheists roaming the streets, killing, pillaging, and raping? Bertrand russell, the famous anti religionist agnostic was against world war one. Did you know that the founding fathers of the american republic were not christians? Currently the strongest god fearers (fundy muslims and fundy christians) are at each others throats. Christianity did not stop its devotees from dropping the only neuclear bombs ever used on people, and on heathens at that.
Where and when is love learned? In the family, from the parents, especially when the kids are infants, and especialy from the mother. You see, god has nothing to do with it.
SS
clash_city_rockers

Test Test
fixing bug in system
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clash_city_rockers

First thing first:
My apologies to Abaddon, I am sorry for mistaking tou for a girl.
Please exept my apology Mr. Abaddon.
Now back to business:
rem posted: snip
Since when does Evolution have anything to do with morals?
Answer:When evolution as a world view denies the Creator (God). Don't be nieve evolution sets up a counter (anti-Christian) world view
Another epic quote from rem:
There are no absolute morals

Response: That is exactly from your athiestic world view. If there is no absolute morals and ethics as you so well put it and that they are just conventions of society as you say. Well done by the way. Then this part of the debate is over and Bible Believing Christianity has been Vindicated and the Christian side has won.
You see you have just demonstraited that YOUR athiestic world view(a product of evolution) can not give an account for any morals or ethics
because there is no real absolute standard. To be consistant with your world view one can not be out raged when evils such as murder, rape infedelity(spouse cheeting). Now that's not to say you won't get pissed if some punk thug off the street rapes your wife, murders a famaly member, robs you at gun point at the B.A.R.T. station. Sure you'll get mad when these things happen but your outrage that these violations are wrong is inconsistant with an athiest world view that teaches that there are no real absolutes. You do not have an absolute standard to say what the violater has done is right or wrong. Someone else from Your world view might just as well defend him by say "hey man, survival of the fittest(evolution's golden rule) so what if he shot you and took your money he needs to survive since there is no absolute standard who's to say that's right or wrong ABSOLUTLY"
Your Posistion is simply non sensical.
rem, frustrated that his world view is being successfully challenged and defeated, makes another false statement: snip
"I choose not to associate with intellectually dishonest people. Show me one article where Johnson has claimed to be a Young Earth Creationist. Show one article where Johnson has dismissed the fact that life has evolved. You cannot. You can only show where Johnson tries to refute the accepted mechanism for evolution - that is "materialistic" Natural Selection."
Response: My point of contention was not to point out Mr. Johnson's particular view of young or old earth. But to point out that Phil J's books really fires the fatal blow to Darwinism and eventually all the assertions of evolution. I figure let Phil Johnson articulate his view thats why I quoted his books which I read. You on the otherhand impune quite ignorantly since I'm am very sure you have'nt read any of his books.
What's really evil about you is that you coockedly try to load the issue by commiting the fallacy of complex questioning.
Show me one article where Johnson has claimed to be a Young Earth Creationist
one of those"have you stop beating your wife questions" ---example of complex questioning.
Look, I want to give you an oportunity to meet Mr. Johnson and see for yourself that your assertions are so totally false up close and personal at the sametime you can meet my christian friends eat free food drink free beer. But sadly you say NOOOOOOO, and shun my like a JW which in your post you have just demonstrated that you are no better than. Shun those who disagree with you, well I'm not going to be a JW like you. I will not shun you my invitation still stands you are always welcome to hang with us.
Yes rem, the pop quizes are going to continue you need to be exposed as a fraud and a lier.
Yes or No only.
1. Did you read Phil Johnsons book "Darwin on Trial" cover to cover?
2. Did you read Phil Johnsond book "Reason in the Balance" cover to cover?
3. Did you read Phil Johnsons book "Defeating Darwinism" cover to cover?
Look one last thing rem
I am not trying to impose God's law just to be mean or legalistic. Lord knows I hate legalism. There is a redemptive perpose for God's law and that is to lead us to Christ (Gal 5).
God's law sheds the light on my sinfullness and that I am a guilty law braker I have no rightiousness that I can claim, my only hope then is to trust solely on the Mercies of Christ. .
1. I am a law breaker, Jesus is a perfect law keeper.
2. Jesus takes my sin and Imputes to me his perfect rightousness with out me erning one drop of it. Sola Fide....Romans 4:5
David W., You can do this type of apologetics too. Its really easy. You dont have to be a PhD. Apologetic is for all christians
go here http://www.reformed.org
go to the apologetic section in the left window and have a go and learn. Check out the Greg Bahnson vs. Gordon Stine debate. Gordon Stine is like the Pope of Athiesm and he knows more than any of these guys we talk to. and Yet Greg Bahnson(reformed presbyterian) just nukes him to kingdom come. Its like Nebraska or Miami playing some small collage in football.
Gordon Stine 0
Greg Bahnson 94
See Ya,
jr
fodeja

Your Posistion is simply non sensical.
clash, I'm not going to comment your arguments (or lack thereof) as I'm just casually reading this thread, but I think funkyderek has a good point: if you don't even make basic efforts to produce readable messages, your credibility suffers. Like it or not, text quality is the body language of the Internet.
I don't think English is your second language, but even if it is, you can still take a minute or two for proofreading. If you're dyslexic, let technology help you: spell checkers aren't perfect, but they help quite a bit. If you just don't care about spelling, don't expect people to read your messages from beginning to end or even take them seriously. More often than not, sloppy writing is a sign of sloppy thinking.
f.
Erich

clash:
My apologies to Abaddon, I am sorry for mistaking you for a girl..
You haven't been the first one...

Marry Christmas Jan-evolution goes down in flames

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