wide ... broad... life.....death

by KAYTEE 80 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Chalam

  Hello Reniaa,

  will hitler be resurrected? your guess is as good as mine.

  Are you still not believing your bible and the words of Jesus Himself?!

  John 5:28 (New International Version)

  28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

  Where is Hitler now? In the grave.

  Yes, he is conscious of nothing under the sun right now Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 because there is no sun where he is.

  However, when he is resurrected he will hear the voice of the Lord. Obviously he has to be conscious to do that! I will leave it to you to decide if you think he will go to everlasting life or everlasting shame.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Narkissos

  Oompa,

  Disturbing as it may be (especially when you come from the JW doctrine) the fact is that the doctrine of general resurrection in the Bible is overwhelmingly connected with judgement, reward and punishment for actions committed or omitted in this life.

  However -- at least down to the NT, included -- it is practically never based on "faith" in the sense of religious membership. Christian salvation is most often described as a way to escape the coming judgement. It doesn't imply that the judgement will be necessarily negative on those who haven't followed this way (cf. Matthew 25).

  reniaa,

  It takes every bit of WT paratext not to read in Revelation 20 what is plainly stated, namely that the general resurrection (not the first resurrection) comes only after the millenium, the releasing of Satan, and the "scrolling away" of the current "heavens and earth" (in that order).

  Chalam,

  Sound like salvation through works alone to me and faith is not required in Jesus. Paul says the opposite

  Precisely. And on this Matthew is much like the Didachè.

  BTS,

  The "vice catalogs" are another topos of late Jewish / early Christian literature; they are found in Paul and post-Pauline literature for sure, but equally in the synoptic gospels (e.g. Mark 7// Matthew 15 about the kinds of "uncleanness" that come from the "heart").
• 

  parakeet

  Reniaa: Parakeet ..... you are resorting to ad hominen now so no point in debating you, it's a technique that is a resort of the poor debator.

  If we were actually having a debate, that might be true. But this isn't a debate; it's shooting fish in a barrel.
• 

  KAYTEE

  Stephan,

  Wow, this sparked off a bit of thinking.

  After all those deep comments I am a bit hesitant about pursuing my original puzzlement on the two scriptures, Math and Acts.

  Accepting Christ is the gate, sounds good to me, those accepting Christ will go through to life.

  Here is my original dilemma, those accepting Christ, will go through the gate to life, But the resurrected ones (good and bad) did not have to accept Christ to get life.

  Still puzzled KT

  Thanks all Reniaa as well
• 

  Black Sheep

  Whereas narrow is the gate leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

  Don't forget to consider the option that this is just another cult offering the same mind control strategy that has been used effectively for millenia.

  Exclusivity is a prime cult tool.

  Do your homework.

  Many religions use the same logic before insinuating that they are the only ones on the 'narrow path'.

  Just saying that 'you' are on the narrow path is not proof of anything except your believe in your 'Guru/Org./doctrines/Preacher/Christ/God/whatever'.

  Please be careful.

  Cheers

  Chris
• 

  Chalam

  Hi KT,

  Wow, this sparked off a bit of thinking.

  After all those deep comments I am a bit hesitant about pursuing my original puzzlement on the two scriptures, Math and Acts.

  Accepting Christ is the gate, sounds good to me, those accepting Christ will go through to life.

  To be honest, that is all that needs considering. Either Jesus was right in saying He is the only path to life or was he a liar and deceiver?

  Like Chris said, you need to do your homework and check it out. My advise is to read your bible and pray. Even Jesus said to count the cost of following Him Luke 14

  Here is my original dilemma, those accepting Christ, will go through the gate to life, But the resurrected ones (good and bad) did not have to accept Christ to get life.

  Forgive me here, because I do not know the WT teaching on the resurrection very much. I am guess they teach that only the JWs will get resurrected right?

  I think you can see that that is clearly contrary to the bible which say everyone will be resurrected.

  So, firstly, what is "resurrection"?

  To understand that you need to look at Jesus because He was the first to be resurrected.

  Colossians 1:18 (New International Version)

  18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

  So what happened to Jesus? He died.

  Luke 23:46 (New International Version)

  46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

  His Spirit left His body.

  James 2:26 (New International Version)

  26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

  Where did it go?

  Luke 23:42-43 (New International Version)

  42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

  43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

  After three days Jesus came back to life. Obviously His Spirit returned to His body.

  1 Peter 3:18 (New International Version)

  18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit

  OK, now all will be resurrected, but some not to an everlasting life, but to everlasting shame, contempt and punishment.

  Daniel 12:2 (New International Version)

  2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

  Matthew 25:46 (New International Version)

  46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

  So what is everlasting shame and punishment? The second death.

  Revelation 20:10 (New International Version)

  10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

  Revelation 20:14-15 (New International Version)

  14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

  So how do you get in the Book of Life?

  Revelation 21:27 (New International Version)

  27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

  Ah, it belongs to the Lamb? Who is that?

  John 1:29 (New International Version)

  Jesus the Lamb of God

  29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

  John 1:35-37 (New International Version)

  Jesus' First Disciples

  35 The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"

  37 When the two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus.

  Once again, Jesus is the gate to life. Let Him take away your sin and follow Him :) All the best, Stephen
• 

  reniaa

  hi narkissos

  I did some research to check what JWs say on the 1000 year reign, they do not on one scripture make a doctrine but find the threads of agreement in all before deciding were prophecy is going.

  One thing I will mention first is Jews believed in an earthly resurrection. All of isaiah's prophecy talk on earthly rewards and so this is what jews believed.

  John 11:24
  Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

  sister of lazarus expressing this belief of the Jews, so here the theme of the hebrew scriptures is a resurrection on the last day on earth.

  next we have the scirpture you talk about

  rev 20: 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

  in the bible to stand up is to mean resurrected so here we have dead people apparently alive before Jehovah being judged but how can they be alive yet dead? the principle was already set by the bible that we are in a dead condition....

  Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

  Eph 2:1 You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins,

  1 Tim 5:6 But she who gives herself to pleasure is dead while she lives.

  1 Pet 4:6 For to this end the Good News was preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit.

  all these scriptures show we are considered dead while in a state of sin and so to be alive we need to qualify for life. which is backed up by the dead actually standing alive before God throne to be judge on their actions as to whether they are to be alive, a testing time allows for this. And the fact that adamic death itself is not thrown into gahenna until after this time shows it is one of testing. Reniaa Yes this is Jw doctrine but the scriptures back it up, your contradictions in yours is how do you have dead standing up before God.
• 

  oompa

  Parakleet.......lmao at your first post!......very CAREFULLY written......nice point....G for rousing interest, illustration fits material, and repitition for emphasis..........oompa
• 

  reniaa

  hi narkissus

  if the first resurrection of judges happens at the beginning of the 1000 judgement year reign and then the next lot the ones that are actually to be judged are at the end of the thousand year judgement reign, who are they judging from heaven during the thousand year judgement reign?

  a few cattle or a pig and sheep or two?

  as my friend says

  "That makes as much sense as a bottle of chips"

  Reniaa
• 

  Chalam

  Hi reniaa,

  I did some research to check what JWs say on the 1000 year reign

  Did you read the bible at all? I have been talking about the chapter where the 100 year reign is describe for a while! Revelation 20

  Now how are you getting on with my question? You have said what Jesus says later on in that chapter is no true and called Him a liar no?

  reniaa-hi oompa you hit the nail on the head it's the 'Hello goodbye formula.

  you wake someone up out of death tell him he's a sinner and send him to hell.

  Revelation 20 (New International Version)

  10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

  The Dead Are Judged

  11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

  All the best,

  Stephen