wide ... broad... life.....death

by KAYTEE 80 Replies latest jw friends

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  PEC

  LMAO
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  Narkissos

  Reniaa,

  You have yet to learn to read (which is precisely what jumping from it to other scriptures, let alone WT "explanations," prevents you from doing).

  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.
  Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
  (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. )This is the first resurrection.
  Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.
  When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
  Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more...

  Summary:

  1. Satan abyssed.
  2. First resurrection.
  3. 1000-year reign.
  4. Satan released, ultimate assault and defeat.
  5. End of "heavens and earth".
  6. General resurrection and judgement before the throne.
  7. New "heavens and earth".

  As the text plainly states, there are still "nations" on earth down to # 4.

  No comment needed.

  Now compare the WT reading (if one dares say):

  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.
  Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
  (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Well, they did resurrect at the beginning of the thousand years, although the author forgot to say and does seem to say the opposite; but here, you see, "came to life" means something entirely different than in the previous verse because we say so) This is the first resurrection.
  Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.
  When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city (which is not on earth btw, that's a poor figure of speech). And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (even poorer figure of speech).
  Then (not then actually, 1,000 years flashback) I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them (again a figure of speech: nothing is changed to the literal heavens and earth). And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books (now this is getting tricky, they are actually judged on what they do after they are resurrected, so the books must be written after they are opened as well). And the sea (literal) gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done (poor choice of tenses: that should read, they will be judged according to what they will do). Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life (which apparently was blank when opened too) was thrown into the lake of fire.
  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth (second 1,000 year flashback?); for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea (now figurative) was no more...

  That's what you are doing to a text you claim to respect.
• 

  isaacaustin

  renia, my suggestion- don't try to go against narkissos. He is well-studied and knows his stuff. You end up looking as ridiculous as the WT.
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  slimboyfat

  oompa makes an interesting observation. It was a similar distaste for the idea that God would resurrect people only to judge them adversely for their past deeds that occupied much of Charles T. Russell's thought and teaching. It was this same disbelief that a loving God would torture people forever that also led him to reject hell.

  Russell's first question was not, "what does the Bible teach?" But rather, "what would it be reasonable for the Bible to teach about a loving God?" He read all the scriptures in that light.

  Quite honestly I don't see why that's such a bad approach: on the principle that the meaning of a text is never secure anyway, so why not plump for a genial reading? Practitioners of the Christian religion in Calvin's Geneva may have displayed a certain fidelity to austere aspects of the text, but was their reading better for it? What is better anyway: accuracy or kindness?

  Maybe the Witnesses are not so easily proved wrong because they read the text incorrectly. It is precisely their wrong reading of the text, born as it is of a desire to give kindness and rationality first place, that makes them right.
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  Narkissos

  sbf,

  I'm afraid no real (or full-fledged ;)) WT apologist could afford this line of argument. Owning to the creative aspect of WT theology as such would imply foregoing the claim to scriptural truth and authority, and setting "human values" such as kindness or reason above "revelation". Too high a cost for the average JW self-understanding imo. On top of that it would be quite a stretch to apply such reasoning to most JW specifics, especially those from the Rutherfordian period.

  Should JWs enter a stage of liberal reform some day (in a "back to the spirit of Russell" mode, for instance), that might be an effective way of rationalising their early doctrinal history though. This doesn't seem to be on the current agenda, but who knows?
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  reniaa

  Narkissus I noticed you avoided the fact they are standing before God clearly alive (and standing up/rising is a word for resurrection), and you condemn my use of other scriptures but since they establish the bible precedent that people are considered Dead in sin and so life is a qualifier. I can understand why you don't allow it.

  You say there will be nations for them to judge but which ones?

  We have armageddon were people are killed or accepted according to trinity we are all swept upto heaven in rapture who is left to be a nation on the earth for the thousad year reign to be judged?

  Reniaa
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  Black Sheep

  We have armageddon were people are killed or accepted

  Rubbish. You don't have that at all.

  Those threats from your killer god are all past their 'use by' dates.

  The 'meat in due season' has gone rancid.

  You have got nothing. You are just going to die like everyone else before you.
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  designs

  Why did the followers of the Trinity become one of the most violent groups in all of history.

  Why did they kill, burn, and murder each other.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Why did the followers of the Trinity become one of the most violent groups in all of history.

  Why did they kill, burn, and murder each other.

  The unitarians were pretty bloody too by the way. Read a little about what was happening in the streets of Alexandria and other places in the 3rd and 4th Century. Being right or wrong on a supposed piece of info doesn't guarantee good behavior.

  BTS
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  Narkissos

  I noticed you avoided the fact they are standing before God clearly alive (and standing up/rising is a word for resurrection)

  I confess I couldn't (and still can't) understand the point you were trying to make. Of course they are resurrected. But when? After the end of the 1,000 years, as explicitly stated in v. 5 and implied by the flow of the text (v. 11f come after v. 7-10). I take the text at face value. You claim it doesn't mean what it says. The burden of proof is yours.

  and you condemn my use of other scriptures but since they establish the bible precedent that people are considered Dead in sin and so life is a qualifier. I can understand why you don't allow it.

  Again, if you insist that some figurative meaning of "coming to life" is in order for zaô aorist in v. 5 but not in v. 4 (or 2:8; 13:14 where the same verb occurs in the same tense), the burden of proof is yours. Other figurative meanings are clear from their context.

  You say there will be nations for them to judge but which ones?

  The text says (ethnoi, v. 3, 8; cf. 2:26; 11:18; 12:5; 15:3f; 19:15). Again, I take the text at face value and conclude that according to this scenario mankind -- or, in a slightly reduced sense of the word, "Gentiles" -- are still very much on earth during the thousand-year reign. They are not the dead of the "first resurrection" who share in the reign (v. 4), nor those of the general resurrection who rise after the thousand-year reign, i.e. after the "nations" are destroyed (v. 8f).

  We have armageddon were people are killed or accepted according to trinity we are all swept upto heaven in rapture who is left to be a nation on the earth for the thousad year reign to be judged?

  I don't claim to reconcile Revelation 20 with the 'rapture' of 1 Thessalonians 4 (I don't think it is anymore related to the "trinity" than to the price of butter in China btw). In se that wouldn't be much of a problem, since in the latter scenario (and that of the synoptic discourse, Mark 13//) most people seem to be "left below". But those scenarii do not contain a thousand-year reign, so it's another story really.

  You might have a better argument by pointing to the mass slaughter in Revelation 19:11-21, which seems to leave nobody alive. This is the real contextual problem. It ceases to be a problem when you consider it to be a different literary unit in a composite work. Dismantling the unity of chapter 20 is, imo, too high a cost for easing this transition. Another interesting pattern that can be noted in Revelation (which I believe is partly accidental, but can be appreciated from a non-critical perspective as well) is that the "end" is delayed again and again. The seven seals open on the seven trumpets which open on the seven cups; even the "nations" destroyed in chapter 20 are there again in 21:22,24; 22:2.