Jesus.....God or God's son?

by digderidoo 280 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  isaacaustin

  There are examples in the Bible of firstborn having nothing to do with birth order but rather rank, or preeminance. Simply read Col 1 and you will see the meaning of 'firstborn':

  NWT

  15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things;

  Verse 18 sum it up- first in all thing. He was not the first to rise from the dead. Also, the word "other" does not belong in verses 16-17. No other translation inserts the word other in those texts, the word does not appear in the Greek manuscripts. That is why the NWT brackets the word 'other'

  NASB has a nice explanatory footnote on the use of the word 'firstborn' as opposed tot he Greek word "first-created"...you may find this informative.
• 

  parakeet

  Spike: Spike Tassel (Post 101)

  Uh, Spiky, don't mean to embarrass you or anything, but your posts are automatically counted for you. See, on the left under your nickname? "101 of 101 [thus far]" No thanks are necessary.

  Here's my take on whether Jesus was God or God's son. I don't believe in God's existence, so if Jesus actually existed at all, he was just another troublemaker in ancient Palestine. I will say this, however -- he made more trouble than three people could have done. So does that make him just one troublemaker or three troublemakers in one?
• 

  isaacaustin

  ...here is the NASB footnote

  “Here Jesus Christ is presented as the image of God, the invisible One.…The other word to which we must turn our attention and which is used twice in this context is the word prototokos, translated as ‘first born’ or ‘first begotten.’…What it means here is that Christ…is above all creation. It does not mean that He is part of the creation made by God, but that the relation of the whole creation to Him was determined by the fact that He is the cause of the creation of all things…and that without Him there could be no creation.”

  I do not have my NASB on me...and was unable to find the entire footnote on the website for NASB.

  The word for "First created" is never used ofr Jesus
• 

  Chalam

  Here you go

  New American Standard Bible

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  isaacaustin

  thanks Chalam, but I can not fid the footnote there...
• 

  snowbird

  Now would be a good time for us to google the etymology of the word God.

  If we do, we'll see that the basic meaning is to call upon, to invoke, to pour out (sacrifice).

  How many of us do those things to Holy Spirit?

  Didgeridoo, I will make a valiant attempt to answer your question about the context of Acts 7:59 ...

  Imho, Stephen's calling upon, invoking, the Name of Jesus (pouring out his soul, as it were) makes it clear that Jesus is God.

  Was Stephen ignoring the Father?

  I don't think so, because the Father has entrusted everything to Jesus.

  Restrangled, my advice is to keep searching.

  Is that as clear as mud?

  Just kidding.

  Sylvia
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Sometimes there is wisdom in realizing there are things we can't fully understand with our minds. That is why there is faith.

  BTS
• 

  reniaa

  hi burntheships

  in your quote from cs lewis do we find one scripture? nope what we get is a lot of rhetoric involving an imagined fantasy on how God can be 3 and one at the same time that is totally unbiblical but one that men try and put on the bible. If you notice he even uses the appeal to the unknown he says humans cannot imagine this so you should believe it lol and used loads of unbiblical rhetoric to try and explain it what man cannot understand.

  We don't need to understand the trinity which is full of oxymorons, 3 can be one is an unbiblical oxymoron nowhere in the bible does it say one can be 3 or 3 can be one!!!! men say this not the bible God's word.

  Reniaa
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  isaacaustin

  Adam and Eve were 2- 2 separate distinct person....they were one flesh- because (at least until their fall) they OPERATED as one flesh. The Father and Son (and the Holy Spirit) OPERATE as one spiritual flesh. This concept is completely in the Bible.
• 

  designs

  The Trinity was the final split from Judaism. Concocted by Bishops who came from the Greek world who had been schooled in Platonic and Aristotelian metaphysical concepts of essence and substance. Taken to its philosophical conclusion every thing is god.

  Prof. Goodman wrote that the metaphysical sense it tries to purport makes no sense without the use of metaphysical jargon.

  Isaac Newton realized what was going on and dumped the Trinity and opted for the Jewish model of Deut. 6:4, One God which Jesus quoted.

  designs