The term "firstborn of all creation" must mean that Jesus was created, or born. But Jehovah was never created, or born.
The WT contradict the bible they quote in the very next sentence regarding "JWs"!
by Chalam 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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boyzone
The term "firstborn" doesn't necessarily mean the first out the womb, it means pre-eminent one or superior one.
http://www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?word=¯t0001056
"firstborn" (from protos, "first," and tikto, "to beget"), is used of Christ as born of the Virgin Mary, Luke 2:7; further, in His relationship to the Father, expressing His priority to, and preeminence over, creation, not in the sense of being the "first" to be born."
Educate yourself.
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Spike Tassel
May I respectfully suggest that even in the case of Jacob and Esau, both were born or created hence the word "born" in the expression "firstborn". Jacob ended up with the rights of inheritance of "firstborn", though Esau was strictly speaking "born first".
Jehovah was never born or created, though he is indisputably the Creator. Jesus, on the other hand, definitely WAS born, which requires Jesus to have a creator, namely Jehovah. It cannot be said that Jehovah had a creator.
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Chalam
The term "firstborn of all creation" must mean that Jesus was created, or born. But Jehovah was never created, or born.
Not necessarily. It is talking about spiritual rebirth.
1 Peter 1:3 (New International Version)
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Romans 8:10-11 (New International Version)
10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
John 6:63 (New International Version)
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
1 Corinthians 15:42-49 (New International Version)
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.2 Corinthians 3:6 (New International Version)
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Romans 8:2 (New International Version)
2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
Galatians 6:8 (New International Version)
8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
1 Peter 3:18 (New International Version)
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit
John 3:3 (New International Version)
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
2 Corinthians 5:17 (New International Version)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Galatians 6:15 (New International Version)
15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.
1 Peter 1:23 (New International Version)
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
Any questions?!
All the best,
Stephen
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Spike Tassel
Jesus was still the first one to be rewarded with a resurrection from the dead to heavenly life. And since the dead know nothing at all, that applied to Jesus too while he was dead. So, Jehovah the one Creator with no beginning had to be the one to resurrect Jesus from the dead. In all ways, then, Jesus qualifies as firstborn of creation.
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Chalam
Spike-And since the dead know nothing at all, that applied to Jesus too while he was dead.
A strange paradise that is, being "conscious of nothing"!
Luke 23:43 (New International Version)
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
2 Corinthians 12 (New International Version)
Paul's Vision and His Thorn
1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. How can Paul have learned "inexpressible things" if he was "conscious of nothing" whilst he was in paradise?! Obviously he was conscious. You better read the verse after Ecc 9:5 too if you want to understand what that verse means.Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (New International Version)
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.All the best,
Stephen
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Spike Tassel
A strange paradise that is, being "conscious of nothing"!
The NWT at Luke 23:43 has the passage correctly translated, as follows:— And he said to him: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise." The placement of the comma makes a lot of difference. Paradise is not the grave, that's for sure. Physical paradise is still future. Spiritual paradise is enjoyed by all who are alive and conscience in the sight of Jehovah God.
The man that Paul was talking about had a vision, obviously, and told Paul about it, if you read the passage again. Scripture's context is not only the surrounding verses but the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
You better read the verse after Ecc 9:5 too if you want to understand what that verse means.
Again the NWT has correctly translated Ecclesiastes 9:6, as follows:— Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.
The context of my response in green so far includes such texts as Psalm 37:29 which reads, as follows:— The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.
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Johnnytwofeet
Truly the Bible is a miraculous gift from God. Where we humans cannot even agree on the placement of commas!
lawl
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Chalam
Hello ST,
OK every time the greek phrase ?μ?ν λ?γω σοι is translated in the bible "truly I say to you", grammatically it makes sense to put a comma in modern English immediately after it. The NWT does this in every instance where the phrase appears in the NWT except Luke 23:43! To put the comma after the phrase would go against the WTBTS doctrine and the truth of the words Jesus was speaking i.e. on that actual day, the thief would be with Jesus in paradise, not today Jesus was saying that at some point the thief would be with Jesus in paradise. Very subtle they move it and change the meaning of the text totally. See for yourself...
Matthew 26:34 NWT Jesus said to him: “Truly I say to you, On this night, before a cock crows, you will disown me three times.”
John 3:5 NWT “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:11 NWT Most truly I say to you, What we know we speak and what we have seen we bear witness of, but YOU people do not receive the witness we give.
John 13:38 NWT Jesus answered: “Will you surrender your soul in my behalf? Most truly I say to you, A cock will by no means crow until you have disowned me three times.”
John 21:18 NWT Most truly I say to you, When you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk about where you wanted. But when you grow old you will stretch out your hands and another [man] will gird you and bear you where you do not wish.”
Luke 23:43 NWT And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”
All the best,
Stephen
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Chalam
Of course I should add that punctuation does not exist in the original greek scripture at all. Thus, it is up to the translator where they put it. However, every other translator put the comma after the phrase for the grammatical reasons I have mentioned and therefore the inference that the thief will be with Jesus on that day!
International Standard Version (©2008)
Jesus said to him, "I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise."New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus said to him, "I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise."King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.American King James Version
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you be with me in paradise.American Standard Version
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.Bible in Basic English
And he said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise.Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.Darby Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.English Revised Version
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.Weymouth New Testament
"I tell you in solemn truth," replied Jesus, "that this very day you shall be with me in Paradise."World English Bible
Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."Young's Literal Translation
and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'The other test is the rest of the bible, it should have the same doctrine. Try these for example.
Philippians 1:21-24 (New International Version)
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
2 Corinthians 5:8 (New International Version)
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
So what do they say? Clearly, if (believers) leave their body they go to be with Christ. Where is He right now? At the right hand of the Father in the Third Heaven 2 Corinthians 12:2
All the best,
Stephen