two witness ruling ?

by KAYTEE 154 Replies latest jw friends

  • mraimondi
    mraimondi

    i havent seen a case where

    person A says "person B raped me" !!!

    and a court convicted person B without any other evidence.. unless person B admitted to it, of course.

    there always is another witness isnt there?

    thing is, JW elders are not CSI, forensics or anything - legal cases should be brought to legal entities, without fear of being called a "slanderer".

    anything in the congregation takes 2 witnesses. it makes sense. people who are victims of sexual abuse need to go to LEGAL entities. And if JW elders discourage this, they should be prosecuted.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    anything in the congregation takes 2 witnesses. it makes sense..Not with sexually abused children..

    people who are victims of sexual abuse need to go to LEGAL entities..Not in Watchtower World.....Those who do are punished..

    And if JW elders discourage this, they should be prosecuted...The WBT$ discourages Elders from naming names..While phoning Police about the crime,anonimously from a phone booth..

    The WBT$ trys to make sure,any legal action goes nowhere..

    The WBT$ takes an active part in protecting Pedophiles,in thier Religious Cult the Jehovah`s Witness`s..

    . .......................................OUTLAW

  • mraimondi
    mraimondi

    it makes sense no matter what.

    what can the congregation do?

    the problem is not the 2 witness rule. that makes sense. what doesnt is IF the elders are discouraging kids from going to authority for any reason.

    After that authority proves the rape actually happened, wouldnt it make sense they would be the "2nd witness" ?

  • KAYTEE
    KAYTEE

    Big Tex,

    I could have done with you when I was incarcerated in the Org. I had many a fall out with them, but even when things were black and white, and you thought you had a stone wall case against them, there was a complete lack of strong brothers who had the courage to speak out.

    That is why all these unchristian acts will keep happening, the majority of those brothers are either weak, or controlled by fear.

    KT

  • mraimondi
    mraimondi

    maybe elders should just stay the FUCK out of cases like rape, murder, theft, etc..

    let the "sword" (authorities) take care of it, and they can use that information to enact action on the person...

  • oompa
    oompa

    lol...i just read this for the first time....WOW you did a nice job early on Big Tex........it seems Reniaa jumped on here with the first reply......then crawled away with her head between her legs (that is not a sexual accusation btw)

    re this two witness thingy........OT did not require it in charges of rape or possible rape..........if nobody even heard the girl scream...she and boy were guilty of fornication and stoned!!!!.........no witnesses at all

    of course if you are a lucky virgin in the field, and yell rape, and arent heard....you are rewarded by getting you marry your rapist.....oompa

    nobody can make this stuff up...........

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    1) What if Brother Lecher does not confess - will he be disfellowshipped?

    "if Brother Lecher does not confess" is present tense, "will he be disfellowshipped?" is future tense. It is a matter of time, method, circumstance, and scrutiny, I suggest. He may not get disfellowshipped; he may rather disassociate, or his baptism may be ruled invalid, he may fade, he may be marked as bad association, etc. Jehovah knows the hearts of all involved. If he dies the "second death" as a result, the matter is all the more tragic.

    2) Your earlier reply implied that a 12 year old rape victim might be disfellowshipped - true?

    The possibility of a 12-year-old rape victim getting disfellowshipped presumes a valid baptism. The substantiation of other events in the case may warrant such a reproof as disfellowshipment, such as a non-cooperative attitude, etc. Life is not so simple that a disfellowshipping couldn't happen to a 12-year-old baptised rape victim, I suggest.

    Amazing; Tex wants to discuss the verified practice of the WT in supressing evidence and threatening victims; Spike wants to discuss verb tenses in defense of a policy that has seen thousands of pedophiles go FREE in the congregation.

    You are out of your league, Spike; WHY would you defend this policy? Do you know of anyone who has been a victim of this policy? I do; I have relatives who experienced this policy first hand; the perp denied, in spite of at least 12 girls who said he had abused him. The elders said that there was not 2 witnesses, and so nothing was done.

    You said you have no courses on logic; how about understanding the abuse of power?

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    On the other had, if Big Tex has already asked 10 people high up and not got the answer he was looking for, how is it fair that he sets me up like I should be the "one in the know" just coming in off the street, so to speak, and without a WT-library on CD to research this out any better than you can. After 7 years, one might think that Big Tex surely has connections to Blondie, et al. who have the WT quotes right ready up their sleeves, or so it seems.

    Be cause:

    1. I already know the answer. I researched this subject 20 years ago when I was told repeatedly I was the "only one" who had a problem with the two witness rule. I asked you because you hopped on this thread and defended something I find repugnant. You then called me a liar. I asked you to defend your position. You, like every other JW I've ever spoken to about this subject, declined.
    2. I don't need to talk to Blondie, or anyone else for that matter. I already know what the Society says, and if you were a Witness so do you. Once again, you called me out. I challenged you. You backed off.

    Here's how any discussion board works: all we have here in this cyber world is what we write. Nothing else. So all anyone knows about us is our words. What we choose to say, or not to say. You threw out some fairly inflammatory rhetoric and then couldn't back it up. If you are not "in the know" on a subject, then have the decency to show respect to others by avoiding pontificating.

    Anyone can have an opinion, but on a discussion board you must be prepared to have that opinion disagreed with or challenged. I'm on other boards and that's the way any board is run.

    BTW I don't appreciate the spin you're trying to put on this thread. You know very well I was not asking you for information. I said specifically to back up your claim of slander. I asked very specifically for you to defend your position. I asked very specifically for you to defend your position, not from the Watchtower, but from the Bible.

    You remind me more than a few Witnesses who would come over to my house to "encourage" me. When they saw their simple solutions, and programmed scriptures weren't working, and they could not answer some pretty tough questions, they, like you, tried to change direction of the "encouraging" conversation into "why attack lil ol me" backtracking. If you think asking questions is me being "mean" well then I can't help you. And for the record, I'm a lot nicer on this thread than Blondie or AlanF or hillary_step would have been!

    Chris

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Outlaw, you're going to be waiting quite a while, I hope you know that!

    i havent seen a case where person A says "person B raped me" !!! and a court convicted person B without any other evidence.. unless person B admitted to it, of course. there always is another witness isnt there? thing is, JW elders are not CSI, forensics or anything - legal cases should be brought to legal entities, without fear of being called a "slanderer". anything in the congregation takes 2 witnesses. it makes sense. people who are victims of sexual abuse need to go to LEGAL entities. And if JW elders discourage this, they should be prosecuted.

    Prosecutors have said that eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. They would much rather have circumstantial evidence in a case than eyewitnesses.

    Frankly I don't know why Jehovah's Witnesses want their elders sticking their noses into a criminal case. If they were really interested in 'justice', have the elders wait until the legal system makes a determination one way or the other. Then, if they feel so inclinded to render some 'spiritual' ruling, do so.

    The organization discourages victims from reporting for exactly the reason I've mentioned -- they want quiet. They want the publishers to be quiet, obey and do what they're told. It's easier that way. No muss no fuss. If there is a case of incest in the congregation it causes all sorts of uproar, it's a distraction and the congregation is drawn away from spreading the truth (read: selling and attending sales meetings). That is why it's discouraged. It's easier to sweep it all under the rug and pretend it never happened.

    In an ideal world, the elders would have more interest in seeing to the very real spiritual needs of the victim, rather than protecting the offender. Sexual abuse, especially incest, causes far more emotional and spiritual damage than physical. There are serious questions victims have about god and, theoretically, elders should be ideally placed to address that need. That they choose not to, and almost always condemn the victim says a great deal about this organization and its defenders.

    I could have done with you when I was incarcerated in the Org. I had many a fall out with them, but even when things were black and white, and you thought you had a stone wall case against them, there was a complete lack of strong brothers who had the courage to speak out.

    Ah Kaytee, I don't know that I would have been much help. If I were playing football, I'd have been red-carded a hundred times!

    But yeah, like you even when things were black and white it meant nothing. My father even admitted in front of an elder what he had done. He's still a MS in good standing to this day. Again things like that say more about that organization, and its defenders than the people like us. I'm sorry for what you went through, it's not fair, it's not right and completely against everything Christianity is supposed to be about.

    At times I truly do wonder how people like that can live with themselves? I mean how do you make it okay in your head?

    Chris

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    "The situations we are each all in are opportunities to show love. And I really ought to show Big Tex some love, for he is my neighbour here, after all. Sorry for being caught off guard. On the other had, if Big Tex has already asked 10 people high up and not got the answer he was looking for, how is it fair that he sets me up like I should be the "one in the know" just coming in off the street, so to speak, and without a WT-library on CD to research this out any better than you can. After 7 years, one might think that Big Tex surely has connections to Blondie, et al. who have the WT quotes right ready up their sleeves, or so it seems. Sometimes, I suggest, it is these simple things that show how true it is that the biggest room in our heart is the room for improvement. Sorry, y'all, this dust-up with Big Tex wasn't what I came prepared for. But, hey, life's quite often like that, it would seem sometimes. Ah well, we live some, we learn some."

    Waaaa waaaa waaaaa! You got your ass served on a platter and now you're crying like a baby and playing the freaking victim card. You ain't no victim Spike. You just made the mistake of getting into something over your head and then you didn't have the balls to admit it. I read this topic to my husband and even he thinks you're a fool.

    Josie

    P.S. Is "disfellowshipment" even a freaking word?

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