Stephen,
Thank you.
-LWT
Pray then, this way......
by AK - Jeff 53 Replies latest jw experiences
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Chalam
LWT-no stress :)
Give the vid a try-you might like it!
All the best,
Stephen
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truthsetsonefree
Some creature who refuses to answer when intelligent beings such as myself, capable of understanding things beyond what the eye can see, have made repeated attempts at communicating, does not deserve my time and effort at contacting he/she or it. If he/she or it even exists. The guessing game is disrespectful and a waste of valuable resources.
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BurnTheShips
Though I respect those who choose to 'believe' - I have never gotten a single one of them to engage in a serious discussion along these lines.
Oh c'mon! You can't say you've ignored me all this time! Or real posters from the past, like LittleToe!
They all just find a scripture or two to pound and thump and then ignore any intelligent questions put to them about proving what they believe.
Don't get me wrong, I love Scripture. But I can talk about these things without quoting it if I have to. And usually, I don't quote it around here because it puts many of us off on this board. Not too hard to understand, most of us came out of a Bible thumping cult.
Yes there is evil in the world. Not all of it makes sense. But I believe in a good God. And a God whose knowledge is so far above our own as to defy any description. What exists, exists because ultimately it is for our greater good. I may not understand it, and it may be a mystery to me, but I hope to be humble enough to accept thay my cognition is too limited to grasp everything.
Cognition is a continuum from the simplest thing, to the infinite--God. We are a point on that continuum. Even among us as individual human beings, some can mentally grasp more than others. A personal of below average intelligence will likely never be able to grasp the significance of the Theory of Relativity in all it's awesomeness. What would you think if that person cursed some of it's empirical consequences?
Earlier I mentioned surrender to God , this is part of it--to realize your own limitations, and accept that God knows better, and that everything will ultimately be OK for everyone, regardless of what exists now. That even suffering has an ultimately good purpose. The God that became Man that I worship suffered as a part of the work he did to enable me to be like him. He is Love, He Loves us beyond all words, reason, understanding, or knowledge, and that everything will be OK in the end. That is the Gospel in a nutshell. The rest is details.
BTS
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AK - Jeff
Stephen and BTS - well stated, and thank you.
Yes, Little Toe was/is a fine person. There are many others, including those who have posted on this thread, whom I respect. Not long ago, I was in the same camp. But as the fog of Christianity has cleared, indeed the fog of religiousity, I have found questions that are wanting from those theories. The adherants to religious thought, though trying to define an answer to the very difficult questions posed here, and sincerely at that, always end up answering with rhetoric of one level or another. The answers, while reflecting faith, don't address the real concerns, but skirt them. The typical 'christian dance' around these matters is that 'God is so far above us that we cannot grasp why he had done what he had done or allowed what he has allowed'. This is a tenebrous position that flies in the face of the scriptures that tell us of God's attributes.
The age old assertion that everything will be fine in time, is without basis in example. Men have been saying that supposedly since the time of the 'first sin' by Adam and Eve. Yet things have only worsened, even for those claiming that God speaks to them. I will pose no further questions. It seems ludicrous to do so at this point to me. The very serious ones above have not been addressed, either by any God out there in outer space, nor by any of his adherants on the board here. My 'lack of faith', if that is how it is percieved, is a direct result, not of my background as a Jw, as some have stated. It is a direct result of having left organized religion and allowed myself the freedom to think, reason, and ask the difficult questions.
When I see little children starving, dying from cancer, or blinded from birth due to some genetic problem, I begin to look at the cause of those things. It makes no sense to me that a 'loving God' would either cause or permit them for so many generations without action. I know of no compassionate human being, who given the power, would not vanish the pain of the masses instantly. Yet I see the 'faithful' worshipping a God who had continued to ignore human pain and suffering for thousands of years - supposedly so that his massive ego will be satisfied with an answer to his less powerful adversary. I cannot imagine that anyone in the universe would be saddened by the instant destruction of that adversary and the reversal of the situations he has supposedly caused at the same time. How much evidence is needed in that heavenly court?
I guess I cannot imitate a god like that. One who would just ignore for so long the pain of his 'children'. I would make a terrible 'God', for I would move to action for my children, removing without delay the cause of their pain. I would not excuse my lack of action on the basis of my children's inability to understand the reasons.
Well, gotta go to work.
Namaste
Jeff
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warmasasunned
AK-JEFF, this god thing, you are so right.
this whole concept we have of what god is, what god isn`t, blah, blah, blah....
its all so obviously made up from an human point of view,
come and find me i`m hiding...why?
anything that happens to humans is their own fault....not true! (starveing millions, death camps, loathsome dieseases)
silly story of adam and eve....very spiteful, very human logic.
i respect anyones right to belive what they want, but to me this idea we have of god is silly....
if i belive in god i will go to heaven, just a good luck charm, an insurance policy.
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PSacramento
I think that, if you start off with a view that God is cruel and uncaring and does horrif things to people, creats all this miseries that happen, there is nothing short of a miracle that will change your mind.
Granted that the bible, the OT in particualr, doesn't always pain a great picture of God and certainly Revelation adds to that horrific view for many, that said, we need to remember that God is far more than the words of Mortal men, mortal men that at times like to use God as an excuse for many atrocities that they commit.
I think it was Big Tex that mentioend that simple answers to complex questions are never good, and he has a valid point, but if I can use the example a friend of mine gave me to make a point:
We put a Man on the Moon, we wend from Wilbur and Orvil Wright "flying" in 1903 to space flight in 1969, we split the atom and so much more, you telling me we can't ( to go back to another topic matter) cure Malaria ? feed the hngry? fix water shortages?
Fact is, regardless of what are views where something came from, chances are we are more than able to fix it.
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BurnTheShips
Yet things have only worsened, even for those claiming that God speaks to them.
AK-Jeff. I thoroughly disagree with that premise. Things are immeasurably better now than they have ever been. And the future will be better than today.
When I see little children starving, dying from cancer, or blinded from birth due to some genetic problem, I begin to look at the cause of those things.
The fault lies in the way we are built. It comes down to the interactions of molecules. We are not yet "finished" (if indeed we will ever be, there is only one Finished). God rested at the end of the 6th day. Now it is our turn to work and finish what he started. He wants to share the glory with us. The Universe lies out there, and within ourselves, waiting for us to do God's work. All these things will be fixed in time. And for those that have suffered in the thin slice of Time they recieved, their souls live on in eternity.
Namaste indeed.
BTS
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AK - Jeff
BTS said:
- The fault lies in the way we are built.
- It comes down to the interactions of molecules.
- We are not yet "finished" (if indeed we will ever be, there is only one Finished).
- God rested at the end of the 6th day. Now it is our turn to work and finish what he started. He wants to share the glory with us.
- The Universe lies out there, and within ourselves, waiting for us to do God's work. All these things will be fixed in time.
- And for those that have suffered in the thin slice of Time they recieved, their souls live on in eternity.
Now, please prove any one of the above.
These are all opinions/ideas/myths/legends without any proof whatsoever. Not a shred of evidence backs any of these statements. I am not an evolutionist - still, the first three statements you make above are far better generally accepted by evolution than by acceptance of God as The Source, aren't they? The last three are just statements without any basis at all in fact. According to the Bible, some of these premises can be supported - but not according to facts. The six day creation legend, eternal souls. You have precisely zero evidence of those. We have no proof of the idea that God has any sort of work for us to do. Nor that all the problems mentioned in this thread are destined to be 'fixed in time'.
Your baseless assumptions, are precisely what this thread is intended to demonstrate. Our pretending that God is out there, poised to act, is ludicrous unless there is some evidence of his intention. Or even his actual existence.
It would be far more sensible for me to stand in front of my house hoping that sometime very soon Lance Armstrong will ride by and wave to me. That at least is a legitimate possibility, since we know as fact that Lance Armstrong is real and that he rides bicycles, and that the street in front of my house is a possible route sometime future. If I and my future generations of family waited long enough, he [or his offspring] might happen by.
Or as stated by another poster - faith in a Flying Spaggetti Monster would make just as much sense. If someone wrote a book advocating the FSM's appearance someday to solve all the world's problems, and it was uncovered and believed in 2000 years, it would be the same thing as faith in a God created in man's image as found in the Bible, wouldn't it?
Jeff
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AK - Jeff
I think that, if you start off with a view that God is cruel and uncaring and does horrif things to people, creats all this miseries that happen, there is nothing short of a miracle that will change your mind.
Some might feel that way. I don't believe I ever stated that. I 'started off' [for a mere 50 years of my life] believing that God was Love. I have now come to take a look at life from a clear perspective. I don't see his love, though I keep looking for it. Do you? Where? What proof do you have of it at all? What prayers of yours have been clearly answered in a way that is indisputable?
As far as that goes - I must wonder why God doesn't provide that absolute clear 'miracle' that will prove his interest, and indeed his existence? Or why he just doesn't care enough to stop all the pain and suffering? Does that seem too much to ask from the Omniscient, Omnipotent God you worship?
Jeff