WTS causing more anguish

by GapingMouth 47 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Psychotic Parrot
    Psychotic Parrot

    We haven't outgrown God because we're still needy & easy to take advantage of, not because he exists. The fact you can't demonstrate his existence drives my point home, the name calling is just to let you know that i don't take the existence of christianity lightly, i see it as a very bad thing that needs to be fixed.

    Exhibit A) the thread starter, completely at a loss, comes here for advice... why? Because christianity has messed his life up! My advice to him is that he should privately tell the elders where to put their briefcases.

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    "We haven't outgrown God because we're still needy & easy to take advantage of, not because he exists. The fact you can't demonstrate his existence drives my point home, the name calling is just to let you know that i don't take the existence of christianity lightly, i see it as a very bad thing that needs to be fixed.

    Exhibit A) the thread starter, completely at a loss, comes here for advice... why? Because christianity has messed his life up! My advice to him is that he should privately tell the elders where to put their briefcases."

    I wouldn't equate JW elders with Christianity. Although it's an easy mistake to make.

    I seem to remember learning in history lessons in school that Stalin tried to eradicate religion, including Christianity, from Russia and it resulted in the loss of millions of lives *. I'm assuming you're suggesting something very similar when you describe it as needing to be "fixed". How do you fix something that is innately in human beings without murdering them? You're coming across as stringently zealous as I'm sure you'd accuse the JW elders as being.

    Quite why believing in Jesus and doing your best to love your neighbours and your enemies is a "very bad thing" doesn't actually make any logical sense and hints at a level of antipathy towards another way of thinking that runs through the veins of only the most dogmatic. But then, Dawkins does describe love as being a part of evolution that's mis-firing.

    Have you read Dawkins view of eugenics, Hitler and what he felt Hitler was trying to accomplish?

    If it's ok with you, I'll follow the teachings of Jesus.

    Also if you were able to put over your argument for your own choice of faith without name calling that would be decent.

    * Edited as I decided to check this figure. From Wikipedia;

    Stalin's role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938. [ 66 ] During World War II, the Church was allowed a revival as a patriotic organization, after the NKVD had recruited the new metropolitan, the first after the revolution, as a secret agent. Thousands of parishes were reactivated until a further round of suppression in Khrushchev's time. The Russian Orthodox Church Synod's recognition of the Soviet government and of Stalin personally led to a schism with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.

    Just days before Stalin's death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted. Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed.

  • Psychotic Parrot
    Psychotic Parrot

    I wouldn't equate JW elders with Christianity. Although it's an easy mistake to make.

    Too right, i'm always getting my cults mixed up.

    I seem to remember learning in history lessons in school that Stalin tried to eradicate religion, including Christianity, from Russia and it resulted in the loss of millions of lives. I'm assuming you're suggesting something very similar when you describe it as needing to be "fixed". How do you fix something that is innately in human beings without murdering them? You're coming across as stringently zealous as I'm sure you'd accuse the JW elders as being.

    Religion needs to be fixed because it causes so much trouble and ultimately is the perpetuation of false hope & an incorrect view of history & the place therein of certain groups of people. But of course i would never do it the way Stalin did, since he wasn't trying to get rid of religion, but rather ANYTHING that threatened his own supremecy, and this just happened to include religion, but it included many other things too. So there is a huge difference. And it's irrelevant anyway, the fact that Stalin was a class A dipshit doesn't mean God exists or atheists are all evil. No more than the existence of muslim suicide bombers means that all muslims are evil. Not all religious people are evil no, but they're still all wrong.

    My way of getting rid of religion would be through a mixture of education & the reducing of religion's free ride in society. The more people learn, the less likely they will be to join a religion & of course religious organisations will struggle to maintain themselves once they lose their tax exempt status & other such perks.

    Quite why believing in Jesus and doing your best to love your neighbours and your enemies is a "very bad thing" doesn't actually make any logical sense

    You're damn right it doesn't. But of course, that isn't what i was calling a bad thing. What i was calling a bad thing was the thing that you were doing, which was far from 'doing your best to love your neighbours'.

    You were preaching, pure & simple. It was inappropriate & poorly timed. And i called you out on it.

    End of.

    and hints at a level of antipathy towards another way of thinking that runs through the veins of only the most dogmatic. But then, Dawkins does describe love as being a part of evolution that's mis-firing.

    Science tells us how things work, it's the real deal, the answer isn't always comforting, but then what good would science be if all it did was tickle your ears.

    Have you read Dawkins view of eugenics, Hitler and what he felt Hitler was trying to accomplish?

    Yes, he is very much against Hitler, as am i & pretty much most other people on earth. And don't go & equate eugenics with Darwinism, that has been debunked & is a strawman. Animal eugenics existed long before Darwin.

    If it's ok with you, I'll follow the teachings of Jesus.

    If it's ok with you, i'll think for myself.

    Also if you were able to put over your argument for your own choice of faith without name calling that would be decent.

    I.e. it wouldn't upset baby Jesus?

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    "Religion needs to be fixed because it causes so much trouble and ultimately is the perpetuation of false hope & an incorrect view of history & the place therein of certain groups of people"

    Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot; common denominator? Wanted a world without religion. Oh, and atheism. They were morally autonomous and they murdered a lot of people along the way. Nice world to live in.

    "You were preaching, pure & simple. It was inappropriate & poorly timed. And i called you out on it.

    End of."

    What do fundie atheists call it when they preach about science?

    "Yes, he is very much against Hitler, as am i & pretty much most other people on earth. And don't go & equate eugenics with Darwinism, that has been debunked & is a strawman. Animal eugenics existed long before Darwin."

    Is Dawkins very much against Hitler? Why has he stated that it's about time that we started seriously considering what Hitler was actually trying to accomplish? Surely what Hitler was trying to accomplish should be completely forgotten and disregarded?

    As for equating eugenics with Darwinism well I wasn't - I was asking you if you knew what Dawkins view of eugenics was, but now you've brought it up, what was the title of Darwin's best known book? "The Origins of the Species By Means of Natural Selection Or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life". And what is definition of eugenics, exactly? I quote;

    "the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)."

    ----

    At the end of the day, you've got your faith that science explains everything (which many scientists don't agree with, btw, hence so many of them being Christians I suppose) and I have my faith in the existence of God.

    "If it's ok with you, i'll think for myself."

    But do you? Or do you read books like everyone else to help you form your world view?

    May you go in peace.

  • Psychotic Parrot
    Psychotic Parrot

    Ah, you're going for the 'atheists are all murderers' angle (soo hypocritical considering no one namedrops religious murderers exactly because there are too many to name), i could probably name about 1000 atheists who think murder is evil (including myself) & as for complaining about people wanting science to be better understood.

    I don't think the word 'fail' begins to cover it.

    Oh & by the way, Hitler was a roman catholic.

    So EXTRA FAIL!

  • Odrade
    Odrade

    Welcome Gaping. I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time.

    (Shame on you, Password. Why don't you take it to a new thread. The OP's beliefs are not up for debate here. Clearly you don't care about being kind or supportive, you just want a platform for your tirades against beliefs that differ from yours. Hey! Just like the JWs! Wow!)

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    Welcome GapingMouth!

    STOP BEING DEPRESSED!!! There, I hope that helps!

    I was depressed when I was a believing dub. I took meds and became "anti-depressed", but not really "happy". I was depressed when I stopped believing, mostly because of the wasted time and energy and bleak circumstances. Nowadays, I still feel depressed sometimes, but I'm coming to terms with reality and seeing real opportunities ahead. Like going from a dark room into the bright sunlight, there's a painful adjusting, but the light is good... but don't tell the folks still in the dark room, they think I'm still "in" and haven't noticed that I'm "out in the sunshine".

    If you think you need professional help, get it.

    B the X

  • betterdaze
    betterdaze

    Welcome, GapingMouth.

    I tested the waters with my wife and although she says she'd respect my new beliefs,

    I know for a fact she would think less of me and our relationship would be very damaged.

    One thing for sure, it is complicated for husbands who wake up to the Watchtower first because of the headship issue. The wife's "deep respect" is overshadowed by her adherence to the Watchtower's rules first and foremost.

    I was raised JW in a "divided" home where my father's headship was undermined repeatedly. To this day my JW mother skillfully uses the religion's "Theocratic Warfare" as a tool to control and/or undermine family members (none of whom became baptized, though some are still believers).

    Not saying your wife is anything like my mother — sincerely hope not — but this is what the religion teaches spouses with unbelieving mates, and it is harmful and confusing to the kids. For instance, I was taught that I didn't have to listen to my father because he was going to die at Armageddon anyway. Your children may be marked as "bad association" because you simply choose not to believe anymore, even if your wife remains in good standing. Nice, huh?

    I can't bare to lose them to the point I decided I must continue my fake-age.

    I understand it is a complex keeping-the-family together issue, and not a spiritual one. Fake-age is okay until you can develop some coping strategies. Hang in there,

    ~Sue

  • WuzLovesDubs
    WuzLovesDubs

    Hugs Gaping :) Welcome to the forum. THOSE OF YOU HIJACKING THIS MANS THREAD KNOCK IT OFF!

    What you are learning about what you have always thought you "knew" is very disturbing to find out. We all have and are going through that. And like when we first became witnesses, we were so enthusiastic about it that we tended to beat everybody including family members, over the head with it...so anxious were we for them to have this WONDERFUL thing we thought we had. And yeah...until someone showed us what we were looking at was a mirage, we didnt know that. Neither did you. So now you are replacing all that grey matter you wasted on the "Truth" with truth.

    Take it slow. You really dont have to talk about this to your wife. Talk here. Make this your place to vent. People all come around at their own pace...if indeed they are going to come around at all. My husband, though we are estranged, managed to stay together 22 years, and I left the witnesses at the 10th year. We went our separate ways not because he was a JW. It took a long time for him to grasp that I would respect his right to believe and he had to respect MY right to believe differently. As for our kids...we would BOTH share what we believed with them and there would be no "forcing" them to do anything. If she takes them to the kingdom hall then you are going to, as their dad, show them and tell them what YOU believe.

    It will take a long time. But hopefully your love for each other will keep the lines of communication open and she has to understand that you didnt do this to hurt her...that things happened. And for you to live a LIE and be a hypocrite and be untrue to your own conscience is just as clear to God as her beliefs are. That you cant put anything PAST God because he reads hearts.

    Whether you believe in God or not...she does and thats the position the JWs take...that God sees clear through you. So does she want you to lie for the sake of peace in the household? Because God hates that as well. Its not a great position to be in but it might appeal to her JW sense of curcular reasoning.

    Again...welcome and do tell us more about yourself k?

    Loves

  • rebel8
    rebel8
    I couldn't believe that something as important as a 'sheep' saying that he no longer knew if he wished to be in the 'flock of gods people' was settled in seconds and he had actually come to the meeting with this alternate material to discuss.

    That is really bizarre. It illustrates how vacant they are of normal logic and compassion.

    Welcome to the board, and to the first day of the rest of your life.

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