Hi SOM aka. brownboy,
Archer is qashat in Hebrew, from qeshet = "bow," toxotès in Greek, from toxon = "bow". Nothing to do with arkhè (beginning, principle, rule) or arkhôn (ruler). (As if you didn't know already :))
I need some good sriptures & reasoning to refute Jesus = Michael Archangel
by androb31 236 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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PSacramento
I don't think that word, Archangel, shows up anywhere in the OT or outside Thelossians or Jude and in Jude it is quoting an event from an non-canonical book.
In theory doesn't that mean that its a "non-canonical" term?
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PSacramento
Its funny, looking up the lexicon info on archangel it mentions that the term was used after the jewish exile and that there were at least 4 or as much as 7, depending on the view of either the "four sides of God's throne" or after the patternof the 7 high spirits of the religion of Zoroaster.
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Deputy Dog
PS
Well, in Revelation it is mentioned Michael and HIS angels, so yes an angel can have subordinate angels it seems.
Thanks for pointing out that verse. But I was thinking in terms like ownership.
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Narkissos
I for one fail to see the interest of limiting the survey of a noun like "archangel" or a name like "Michael" to an anachronistic (16th-century AD!) Protestant canon, when a broader corpus of contemporaneous Jewish literature is available. Should we deal in the same way with all Greek words which appear only once or twice in the NT and are not sufficiently determined by their "canonical" context, disregarding contemporaneous usage in other Greek works because it is "non-canonical," there would be many more artificial and unnecessary semantic "enigmas". Sounds like a very silly game to me.
That being said, the basic notion of "archangels" which clearly appears from a survey a non-canonical Jewish literature (e.g. 1 Enoch), i.e. an inner circle of (7 or 4) highest ranking angels, including Michael (and Gabriel, Raphael, etc.), does seem to be echoed in "canonical" literature. E.g. the 6 + 1 envoys in Ezekiel 9:2ff, Michael being one of the arkhontes in Daniel or "the seven angels who stand before God" and "offer the prayers of the saints" in Revelation 8:2ff -- notice the similarity in number, position and function in (deuterocanonical!) Tobit 12:15: "I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who bear the prayers of the holy ones and enter before the glory of the Holy one."
However, it must be noted that Philo of Alexandria (who shows little interest for the "apocalyptic" tradition and literature to which "the archangel Michael" definitely belongs) does use the word arkhaggelos ("archangel") as one of the titles for the one logos. Of the Confusion of Tongues, 146: "And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God's image, and he who sees Israel." Who is the Heir of Divine Things, 205: "And the Father who created the universe has given to his archangelic and most ancient Word a pre-eminent gift, to stand on the confines of both, and separated that which had been created from the Creator. And this same Word is continually a suppliant to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race, which is exposed to affliction and misery; and is also the ambassador, sent by the Ruler of all, to the subject race." Considering the influence of Philonic categories in general on early Christian theologies, it certainly leaves room for an (arch-)angelic Christology (which seems to be echoed in early church Fathers like Justin Martyr for instance), even though it is not directly attested in the NT.
An interesting article by Hurtado on the (arch-)angelic background of NT Christology: http://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/1842/2661/1/HurtadoMonotheism%5B1%5D+DSS+Handbook.doc
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Leolaia
Its funny, looking up the lexicon info on archangel it mentions that the term was used after the jewish exile and that there were at least 4 or as much as 7, depending on the view of either the "four sides of God's throne" or after the patternof the 7 high spirits of the religion of Zoroaster.
Here are some relevant texts:
"And on hearing this, the four great archangels (hoi tessares megaloi arkhaggeloi) Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from the sanctuary of heaven upon the earth and saw much bloodshed upon the earth. All the earth was filled with the godlessness and violence that was done on it. And entering in, they said to one another, 'The spirits of men grown, making petition saying, "Bring in our judgment to the Most High" '. And approaching, the four archangels (hoi tessares arkhaggeloi) said to the Lord, 'You are the God of gods and Lord of lord and King of kings and God of men' " (1 Enoch 9:1-4; translated from Aramaic in the second or first centuries BC).
"These are the names of the holy angels of the powers: Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the world and Tartarus, Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the spirits of men, Raguel, one of the holy angels, who pursues the world of the luminaries, Michael, one of the holy angels, who has been put in charge of the good ones of the people and over chaos, Sariel, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of the spirits who sin against the spirit, Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is in charge of Paradise and the serpents and the cherubim, and Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God has put in charge of those who will rise. These are the seven names of the archangels (arkhaggelón onomata hepta)" (1 Enoch 20:1-8).
"And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his firstborn Word, the eldest of his angels, as the archangel having many names (hós an arkhaggelon poluónumon huparkhonta); for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God's image" (Philo of Alexandria, De Confusione Linguarum, 146; written in the early first century AD)
"I, Jacob, who is speaking to you, am also Israel, an angel of God and a ruling spirit.... And when I was coming up from Syrian Mesopotamia, Uriel, the angel of God, came forth ... and envied me and fought with me and wrestled iwth me saying that his name and the name that is before every angel was to be above mine. I told him his name and what rank he held among the sons of God: 'Are you not Uriel, the eighth after me [i.e. not of the seven archangels], and I, Israel, an archangel of the power of the Lord (kagó Israél arkhaggelos dunameós kuriou) and chief captain among the sons of God?' " (Prayer of Joseph 1, 4-7; written in the first century AD).
"The Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, and with the voice of an archangel (en phóné arkhaggelou), and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" (1 Thessalonians 4:15; written in the middle of the first century AD)
"The most eminent Babylonians and Hostanes and Zoroaster authoritatively call the heavenly spheres 'flocks', either in so far as alone among corporeal magnitudes, they are completely drawn around a single center, or because their connections are decreed even by scientific savants to also in a sense be called 'clusters', and they for the same reason call these clusters 'flocks' in their holy writings, and also 'angels' by insertion of the lost 'g' [i.e. agelos 'flock' and aggelos 'angel']; hence the heavenly bodies and spirits which are outstanding in each of these flocks are likewise called angels or archangels (arkhaggelous), and these are seven in number (eisin hepta ton arithmon)" (Nicomachus, Theologoumena Arithmeticae, 57.8; written in the first century AD).
"But even Michael the archangel (Mikhaél ho arkhaggelos), when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!' " (Jude 9; written in the first century AD, a reference to the book Assumption of Moses).
"And immediately Michael the archangel (Mikhaél ho arkhaggelos) stood beside him with multitudes of angels, and they bore his precious soul in their hands in divinely woven linen. And they tended the body of the righteous Abraham with divine ointments and perfumes until the third day after his death. And they buried him in the promised land at the oak of Mamre, while the angels escorted his precious soul and ascended into heaven singing the thrice-holy hymn to God" (Testament of Abraham 20:10-12; written in the early second centurty AD).
"Adam lay for three hours and then the Lord of all, sitting on his holy throne, stretched out his hands and took Adam and handed him over to the archangel Michael (tó arkhaggeló Mikhaél), saying to him, 'Take him up into Paradise, to the third heaven, and leave him there until that great and fearful day which I am about to establish for the world'. And the archangel Michael (ho arkhaggelos Mikhaél) took Adam and brought him away and left him...And he spoke to the archangel Michael (tó arkhaggeló Mikhaél), 'Go into Paradise in the third heaven and bring me three cloths of linen and silk.' And God said to Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael, 'Cover Adam's body with the cloths and bring oil from the oil of fragrance and pour it on him.' And thus they did and prepared his body ... Then the angels took up the body [of Abel] and set it on the rock, until the time his father died, and both were buried according to the command of God in the regions of Paradise in the place from which God had found the dust" (Greek Life of Adam and Eve 37:4-40:6; written in the early second century AD).
"May Michael the archangel of righteousness (Mikhaél ho arkhaggelos tés dikaiosunés), who opens the gates [of heaven] for the righteous, be the center of my attention until he leads the righteous in" (4 Baruch 9:5; written in the middle of the second century AD).
"First, Gabriel was revealed [to Mary] in his strong and holy person. Second, the archangel (arkhaggelos) [i.e., Gabriel] also addressed the maiden in speech" (Sibylline Oracle 8:459-460; written in the late second century AD, c. AD 175).
"And who can enumerate one by one all the remaining objects which have been constituted by the power of God, and are governed by His wisdom? or who can search out the greatness of that God who made them? And what can be told of those existences which are above heaven, and which do not pass away, such as angels, archangels (arkhaggeloi), thrones, dominions, and powers innumerable?" (Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses 2.30.3; written in the late second century AD).
"Neither worship as the Jews; for they, thinking that they only know God, do not know Him, adoring as they do angels and archangels (arkhaggelois), the month and the moon. And if the moon be not visible, they do not hold the Sabbath, which is called the first; nor do they hold the new moon, nor the feast of unleavened bread, nor the feast, nor the great day....And God is far from calling aloud in the unapproachable sanctity, separated as he is from even the archangels (arkhaggelón)" (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6.5.41, 6.7.57; written in the late second century AD).
"The righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and unfading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host (ephestóta arkhaggelon hama stratia)" (Hippolytus, De Universo, 20; written in the early third century AD).
"The priests are analogous to the archangels in heaven (tois en ouranó arkhaggelois) turned toward the gods, of whom they are the messengers" (Porphyry, In Platonis Timaeum Commentaria, 1.17.5; written in the third century AD).
"As I was praying to the God of heaven and earht, there was granted to me from the Lord Sabaoth through Michael the archangel (dia Mikhaél tou arkhaggelou) a ring which had a seal engraved on precious stone....I prayed that Uriel the archangel (Ouriél tou arkhaggelou) would come to help me" (Testament of Solomon 1:6, 2:7; written in the third century AD)
"He was a chief captain of the power of the Lord which ... he recognized while doing service in the body, being reminded of it by the archangel Uriel (tou arkhaggelou Ouriél)" (Origen, Philocalia Sive Ecologa, 23.19; alluding to the Prayer of Joseph, written in the third century AD).
"When the captivity of the Jewish people at Babylon was near its end, Gabriel the archangel (Gabriél ho arkhaggelos), one of the holy ministers of God, appeared to Daniel as he prayed, and told him that the restoration of Jerusalem was to follow without the slightest delay, and he defines the period after the restoration by numbering the years" (Eusebius, Demonstratio Evangelica 8.2.5; written in the early fourth century AD).
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Trevor Scott
Wow! This is still going on? According to scripture Jesus CANNOT be Michael, Gabriel, or any other angel.
Read Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13:
Hebrews 1:5 - God has never said to any of the angels, "You are my Son, because today I have become your Father!" Neither has God said to any of them, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son!"
Hebrews 1:13 - God never said to any of the angels, "Sit at my right side until I make your enemies into a footstool for you!"
According to these verses, God *NEVER* said these things to *ANY* angel. According to other verses, God *DID* say these things to Jesus. (Ps 2:7; Heb 5:5; Ps 110:1; Mt 22:42-44). Logic forces the conclusion that Jesus CANNOT be an angel.
Numerous other verses show the unlikelihood of Jesus being an angel (as has been pointed out by others), but these two verses in Hebrews PROVE it conclusively.
Seriously, why is this debate still going on? According to scripture Jesus cannot be an angel. Period. The irony is that these verses in Hebrews were written to settle this very debate. So why are we still debating? Have we disregarded scripture in this matter? Is this just debate for the sake of debate?
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Son of Man
Hello Narkissos, and Leolaia, long time no see "Agape" ! !
Jesus Christ "is" Michael the Archangel based upon what I have already written in it's meaning. Meaning it represents Ishmael and is descriptive of the account where and "angel" appeared to Hagar in regards to "Ishmael", an archer. No one else is the 'Great Prince" but Jesus Christ whom is referred to as "Michael".
Both Narkissos, and Leolaia are very well verses and knowledgable. Very impressive indeed. However when making reference to anything written in the bible, an "uninspired" testament or "writing" should never be brought in to give weight to a matter in question.
the faithful slave
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Trevor Scott
: However when making reference to anything written in the bible, an "uninspired" testament or "writing" should never be brought in to give weight to a matter in question.
Why is that? You clearly don't believe the bible otherwise this debate would be over. Thank you for reminding me why I no longer debate Jehovah's Witnesses such as yourself online.
Peace.
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Son of Man
: However when making reference to anything written in the bible, an "uninspired" testament or "writing" should never be brought in to give weight to a matter in question.
Why is that? You clearly don't believe the bible otherwise this debate would be over. Thank you for reminding me why I no longer debate Jehovah's Witnesses such as yourself online.
Peace.
I am "not" one of Jehovah's Witnesses as in a part of the W.T.S. I am a witness of The Almighty GOD however.......this debate is over once no one else has a thought to add correct? Until then, I rest my case.......
the slave