I need some good sriptures & reasoning to refute Jesus = Michael Archangel

by androb31 236 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Borgia

  :For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

  This is the scripture used to "proof" that J=M because of the voice of the Archangel. Well.... if J=m = archangel is really true, literally true as the JW would have it J= the trumpet call.

  Now that's an interesting artful approach. Jesus the trumpet. ....In trumpets name ....Or michaels name ... or perhaps: In trumpet michaels name....Jesus...

  Cheers

  Borgia
• 

  Trevor Scott

  Sacolton, so true.

  In case any doubt, the '1914 generation' doctrine is a practical example. Back in the day I would debate the legitimacy of this doctrine with JWs who would insist on its correctness. No amount of logic or scripture evidence could convince them the doctrine was false. It was correct in the face of logic, in the face of scripture. It was correct simply because the Watchtower Society said it was correct. And when the WTS said it was false, well it was false. Period. Just like that.

  Always interesting to me is how the fact that they argued endlessly in favor of the 1914 generation, told people at the doors that it was the truth and even "the Creator's promise", is of no consequence to them.

  Where is the guilt for preaching false doctrine? For literally being one of the false teachers the Bible predicted for latter days?

  Where is the fear of God for telling countless people that He "promised" something that he did not promise?
• 

  Leolaia

  Rev 12 tells us that Michael has authority over angels (no one else but Jesus has such authority).

  Nowhere in Revelation does it say that only Jesus had authority over angels, that certain angels weren't ranked above others. That is precisely what is presumed by the term archangel in apocalyptic literature, a class of angels ranked over all others.

  Genesis 3:15 tells us that Jesus, the seed would crush Satan.

  Actually it says no such thing, but this is a later interpretation which may or may not be relevant to Revelation 12. You are adding to this your own interpretation that the battle in heaven is the "crushing" of Satan, as opposed to his defeat and binding by Jesus in ch. 19-20, or Satan being thrown into the lake of fire afterwards. In ch. 12 Satan has only lost his place in heaven, he is depicted as coming to earth, setting up a political and religious structure (the two Beasts), breathing his own authority into them, whereby he misleads the entire world (ch. 13-15, 17).

  Jude 9 tells us that Michael is the archangel.

  But not necessarily the only one.

  Thess 4:16 tells us that Jesus has an archangel's voice.

  It says no such thing. It says that while Jesus descends from heaven, there will be a shout, an archangel's voice, and the sounding of a trumpet. Three sounds accompanying the descent. It doesn't say that Jesus' voice is like that of an archangel.
• 

  PSacramento

  Reniaa,

  The archangel issues has been addressed already, Only in Jude is Micahel refered to as an archangel, and they is a direct quote from a book that the JW's don't recognise as canon, he is also NEVER referred to as the ONLY Archangel, on top of that, if we accept the term "chief prince" as synonimus to archangel, then Daniel makes it clear that Michael is ONE of the chief princes/archangel.

  You can't have it both ways.
• 

  Leolaia

  This is the scripture used to "proof" that J=M because of the voice of the Archangel. Well.... if J=m = archangel is really true, literally true as the JW would have it J= the trumpet call. Now that's an interesting artful approach. Jesus the trumpet.

  If you read the verse in the Greek, you can see that the manner of Jesus' advent is characterized with three dative en-phrases in a row, i.e. "in a loud command, in an archangel's voice, and in the trumpet of God". These are datives of either association or sphere, i.e. they either describe what accompanies the Lord's coming or they depict the scene or situation in which the event occurs. In other words, Jesus' coming is accompanied with an archangel's voice shouting forth, or occurs in the midst of a loud shout, just as it is accompanied by the sound of a trumpet. The mention of the trumpet call with the other items in the same construction shows that both are paralleled as being things that accompany the descent of Jesus.
• 

  Trevor Scott

  Leolaia, very true.

  Other verses show that Jesus is accompanied by angels at his return (Mt 16:27, Mt 24:31, 2 Th 1:7) so not surprising that 1 Th 4:16 would mention the presence of an archangel.

  Peace.
• 

  PSacramento

  Leolaia,

  Thanks for the information in regards to 1Thessalonians 4:16.

  I looked up the preposition "en" and you are quite right, as usual :P, it denots position, instrumentality and relation of rest.
• 

  Leolaia

  i'll answer yours if you can tell me how Jesus can empty himself and still remain 100% God lol.

  If you empty yourself of all the glory you have for being reniaa, are you still reniaa?

  Or to use the Frog Prince example, once the prince has been turned into a lowly frog, thereby losing all the power and glory he had as a prince, but still recognizing himself as the same person as he was as the prince, does the prince no longer exist? Or is the prince in the form of a frog?

  My point in the other thread is that the Society has contradictory views on this. On the one hand, they want to use the biblical language that the heavenly Son came down to earth to dwell with men. But when they try to explain how this happened, they are constrained by their doctrine on anthropology (i.e. there is no such thing as an internal soul, the life-force is impersonal, an embryo receives its life-force from its parents, ec.) to describe a scenario that precludes any continuity of personal identity between the human Jesus and the prehuman Son.
• 

  PSacramento

  Lets us not forget that Jesus saw Satan fall from the Heavens as per Luke.

  An event that he saw before he became human.
• 

  Narkissos

  i'll answer yours if you can tell me how Jesus can empty himself and still remain 100% God lol.

  only kidding ^^

  Kidding or not, you did not answer my question. However you can easily find detailed and nuanced answers to yours by googling "kenosis" or "incarnation" for instance; but that might deprive you of a number of strawman arguments.

  hebrews is not my strongest subject

  Now you're making me curious: what is your strongest subject? ;)

  but I do know when it says God appointed Jesus, Jesus inherited a name to make him superior to the angels, that jesus became superior, that he wasannointed from among his companions aka angels. That Jesus is unique and certainly by Hebrews he is the only spirit being to have been a man, he is also the only begotten from God. Hebrews is pointing out how unique Jesus has become not that he wasn't an angel quite the contrary it's only that his actions and God has set him apart from them. It very much shows he was once was among them. One thing to note God still remains completely superior to Jesus no hint of Jesus being God at all.

  Why are you making time period an issue hebrews is more talking about acheivements?

  All the "achievements" (actions, events) you vaguely refer to are situated in time, implying a before (in which Jesus was an angel, according to you) and an after (in which he had become more). You could apply such reasoning to the hymn of Philippians 2 where Jesus is exalted and given the name above all (other) name at the end of a process, namely his humiliation and death. This theme is also present in Hebrews (e.g. 2:9). However, it clearly doesn't start there since the Son's superiority over angels is described as part of his very being (1:3), eternal (1:8), reflected in the creation of the world (1:2,10ff), in his continual sustaining of everything (1:3), and in his "introduction" into the world (1:6).