where do the refinements come from?, and why do you answer thus?

by Spike Tassel 111 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JWoods
    JWoods
    Surely you jest, Tassel. Jw's are not allowed to do this, and you know it! You live under the giant Governing Body conscience umbrella - Jw's wouldn't know a personal conscience if they had one bite them in the ass. Sorry, but true.

    Nothing could make this clearer than the draft rules (circa VietNam) and the pre-fractions blood rules. Nobody - NOBODY was allowed to follow their "christian conscience" - they would have been dissasociated if they had. (DA, not DF to protect the Society from liable)

    Not a word of apology to the victims when all this got radically changed.

    In fact, the Watchtower arrogantly wrote that if anybody got a prison term or had a relative die over these, they should "feel happy to have followed their conscience" - when in fact these people were just knuckling under to the iron regime of the day.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Spike.. Your off topic on your own thread and you refuse to answer questions.. You remain,a Spike without a Point.....A Pointless Spike.. ..............LOL!!...OUTLAW

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    Come on, Spike. Some very clear, and very fair questions asked here.

    You started this - and no, it is not an attack on you to discuss what you started.

    The Watchtower Dictionary:

    Refinements:

    1. Any change in doctrine or eschatology that is used to cover the tracks of organizational misteps of the past.
    2. Any change in position or teaching that can be labeled as 'Newlight' or 'corrected understanding', provided that such meaning always moved the blame for such to 'imperfect men' and suggests that God was unable for some reason to provide a clear understanding the first time around - probably once again due to 'imperfect men' and their lack of ability to 'handle the truth' at that time.
    3. Any method used to completely ignore past misjudgments, loss of significant life due to policy, or organizational bloodguilt for those lives ended as a result.
    4. Any 'adjustments' to understanding that require what could be otherwise deemed 'deception' by changing the wording after the fact of falsely held ideas, especially as related to material released for archives [i.e.; the right of the governing body to change the record by revising publications before they are released in CD or other archives]. Of course such 'refinements' are never catalogued to show such changes.
    5. Any efforts used to just ignore past teaching as if it was never there. Examples: dates for Armageddon, end of the world, beginning or end of 'Gentile times', use of blood, organ transplants, affliliation with the beasts of Revelation - esp: The United Nations, also known as the Scarlet Colored Wild Beast with Seven Heads and Ten Horns.
  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    That is the wall you hit with a JW/or JW wannabe who does not want to acknowledge fact. They run. My wife said she'd research 607BCE...I have not heard a word on it since- several months.

  • TD
    TD

    If there is a God, then true bonafide refinements come from God --End of story.

    But the next logical question would be how this information works its way from heaven down into the minds of men, especially with so many different religions claiming to represent God in some way. And this is the point where it seems to me that JW reasoning typically devolves into generalites.

    Guidance can only take two basic forms: For example, if I invited you to my house for dinner, there are two methods I could use to guide you there.

    1. I could give you the address, maybe draw you a little map and let you figure it out. --This would be passive guidance. Passive guidance is largely dependent upon you and your own reasoning abilities since it is possible to misread or misundertand someone else's map.

    2. I could ride with you in the car, or stay with you on the phone while you drove, telling you to, "Take your next left, then go straight and take your third right" etc. etc. --This would be active guidance. Active guidance is much less dependent upon you, since you're being told exactly what to do.

    When the God of the Bible is involved, Active guidance constitutes true plenary inspiration in all the forms described therein. The JW leadership disclaims true plenary inspiration. --No dreams, no visions, no prophecy, no speech of knowledge, no gifts of the spirit, no revelations, no writing on the wall, no contact with angels, etc.

    This leaves us with passive guidance. God has given us the "address" and drawn us a "map." --That map is the Bible. But since we're all fallible, it's possible to misread and misunderstand that map from time to time. This is the most reasonable, logical explanation for the JW leadership's various faux pas over the years.

    --But this explanation does not suit the JW leadership at all. Every single person and organization who sincerely reads and tries to follow the Bible has an equal and identical claim to this form of guidance and this explanation if carried to its logical conclusion would rob them of much of their authority and unique position.

    The result is a nebulous, 'betwixt and between' picture where the JW leadership presents itself as more than just sincere Bible students, but less than inspired prophets. Exactly what empowers them to be more than just sincere Bible students is only explained in generalities --never specifics.

    As others have pointed out on this thread, "Refinements", "Adjustments", "New light" etc. in the JW faith are more often than not, simply the correction of previous mistakes and the source of the correction is usually outside pressure. (e.g. Passage of time, lawsuits)

    With respect, Spike, I think presenting "Refinements" as anything more than this is a very good illustration of the pitfall of trying to reason in generalities.

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    I say humility, because it takes humility that others could know more. Humility does the research required to make the truth personal.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    agreed Spike. Something that the Wt does not show. Instead they insist they are are and all others are wrong.

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    How do you know, Isaac? You reject any refinements as hamster bedding, I see.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    I reject so-called refinements of a known false prophet, which are simply damage control to their already tainted history. I know this thru reasearching their history.

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    Isaac, isn't it a bit like reasoning with a mole or a woodchuck? They just duck and run, sometimes making funny noises as they do. The damage they do in failing to understand or act on understanding is hard to undo. Only their short lifespan is a blessing to those who encounter them.

    Jeff

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