AMAZING - Exposing Elders (re: Expose Ave...

by AMNESIAN 126 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    You make a lot of excellent points, Amnesian. I don't quite agree with some points, but so what else is new?

    You certainly showed your humorous side. I really had to laugh at your pointy wit.

    So now you know the truth about "RPJ", eh? If that's who I think it is, yeah, he's disappointed a lot of people. So have a lot of Watchtowerites who have sold out.

    One thing I want to say is that I view the entire JW community as largely responsible for their own state. True, for the most part they're "victims of victims", but they're willing victims because, at least in the Western world, there is so much information available to show up the bullpucky preached by JWs that they simply have no excuse. As a young man I almost quit, but eventually gave in to social pressure to conform. After all, almost all of my family were JWs. Yet I knew, deep down, that conforming was wrong. But because of the training to always defer to the Society, along with the certain knowledge that my family would have little to do with me if I quit, I yielded. I think that somewhere along the line, nearly every JW runs into the same thing. Elders do too, especially when they get into the "secret shit". And because elders voluntarily take on extra responsibility, for good or bad reasons, they have a lot more responsibility for every wrong thing in the JW organization, so that it is propagated by their aquiesence. Overall, the JW organization is a prime example of an Orwellian system, a system motivated partly by good aspirations, but largely by fear and willing ignorance.

    AlanF

  • Julie
    Julie

    Teejay,

    I don't think Amnesian's angry and if you are smart you won't make her that way. She looks like she could make you well acquainted with pain I've never even come close to inflicting on you.

    Amnesian, you're a credit to your gender.

    Regards to all,
    Julie

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Hey Julie,

    You are probably right. And she never once called Amazing a 'moron' or worse.

    Ok OK OK then, shut up Bearman!

    BearSimpering

  • Julie
    Julie

    No you're right bear-man. She didn't call him a "moron" she certainly made it clear thought Even Worse of Amazing. She is obviously willing to go to the trouble to be much more diplomatic about it. I am far too lazy to do so 99% of the time.

    Point happily conceded.

    Julie

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Julie,

    Damnation, again we are agreeing!

    Understanding the frail male ego, not to mention the male ability to concentrate for periods of more than moments (without some sexual..flight of fancy), should be a clue to Amnesian and other women's view prognosticator's, that we 'men' need a little diplomacy to sooth the savage beast's we are.

    Even Amazing smitten as he was, could only (as I have done) -sigh- with the reply; 'you just did not understand me'.....:)

    Even in the face of solid argument and untwisted reasoning we often fall back flat on our own hoisted petards! Who me?

    Danny
    ps.Ginny you picking a fight with t-man again? Don't you know he was being fallacious, no I mean factious?

  • msil
    msil

    .

  • outnfree
    outnfree

    AMNESIAN,
    I can't find the words to express my admiration and delight! I strongly suggest everyone go to the provided links in order and read all of them through.

    Amazing,
    I have been privileged to meet you in person and have great respect for you and your work. But I think you are wrong to say that AMNESIAN
    has sprinkled her post with misrepresentations, twisted quote and blame-shifting. I will be very interested to read your rebuttal.

    Gentlemen,
    Most of you have just been WELL-educated to 'the view from the bottom' that women in the WTS have.

    All,
    My opinion on the matter first raised is that elders who remain elders after learning all the "shit" are more culpable than any rank and file publisher unaware of the corruption. Elders knowing the "shit" who step down as elders and remain in the organization for the sake of family peace are horses of a different color. Elders knowing the "shit" and remaining until the covert action has been deployed are also horses of a different color.

    The former are sacrificing their integrity and hardening their consciences to the bad in the organization.

    I hear you, Amazing, when you say that some stay to mitigate the influence of the bad, hard-assed elders. However, some do stay for the badge of honor or maybe it's better called the "badge of goodness-confirmed" that being "promoted" to elder/CO/DO represents. I, as a sister, diligently studied and commented to have that constant pat on the head so that I could feel good, holy, validated, somehow.

    You see the reason I left the Borg was tied up in the unfeeling attitude of two elders who were approached to provide "humanitarian aid" to a DF'd friend of mind. Somehow I put up with the doctrinal changes, although 1995 had me reeling, but the lack of love finally stuck in my craw.

    At that time, I was the naive "non-elder JW Publisher," obviously SO far out of the loop that I knew nothing of the corruption I would later learn about. Yes, Amazing, I knew that couching our purpose at the doors was deceitful. It bothered me, and I always tried to answer to a question like "Are you trying to convert me to a JW" with a response like "If you were convinced that what you had learned from the Bible was so precious, wouldn't you want your neighbors to have the same knowledge?" rather than the other canned responses. (But even here I engage in self-justification, because I never flat out replied "Yes" which was the REAL truth!!!) Nonetheless, the things I have since discovered have floored me!

    Little things -- envelopes to the CO's for influence peddling? NOT IN MY VERSION OF JEHOVAH'S CLEAN ORGANIZATION!

    These envelopes never being declared as INCOME to Caesar? NOT IN MY VERSION OF JEHOVAH'S HONEST ORGANIZATION!

    The Society investing in companies that build weapons? NOT IN MY VERSION OF JEHOVAH'S NEUTRAL ORGANIZATION!

    The Society requiring the building of more kingdom halls to which they hold the title AND the mortgage? NOT IN MY VERSION OF JEHOVAH'S UPRIGHT ORGANIZATION!

    The housing perks of long-serving Bethelites? NOT IN MY VERSION OF JEHOVAH'S WORLDWIDE EGLITARIAN BROTHERHOOD!

    I could go on....

    All but the last were things I was NOT privy to as a rank and file publisher in good standing. And the last sorely disturbed me when I finally visited Brooklyn Bethel and heard about them!

    Now, I am fortunate in that I was the only 'nutter' in my family to have joined this high-control organization, which made my leaving SO much easier!

    But how CAN brothers stay and remain on as elders when they have first-hand knowledge of such practices? I am with AMNESIAN that were one or several of the "good" elders in my hall to step down or resign in protest, I would have wanted to know why and given the above information, I would have left. I despise corrupt behavior and hypocrisy. Remaining an elder most certainly DOES imply that the brother implicitly believes in the organization, its rules, and, of course, the 'work' that it is doing. I have NEVER heard an elder publicly say anything against the organization more than an "Oh, well..." or a well-placed shrug.

    Also, at my hall, two of the three brothers on the investigative committee formed when I submitted my DA letter had this telling comment to make: "Where in the world would two guys like us have been able to make our lives over and reach this level of respectability?" Who were these two guys? One, a former addicted gambler, the other a former resident of South Chicago, whose membership in the "truth" got them straightened up both personally AND professionally. They were now PROFESSIONAL black men, proud of it, and it showed. They were used to running things at work, and enjoyed running things at the KH (one was the PO). THESE brothers were into power. So much so that another black elder in our territory could not ABIDE working with the P.O., though he tried, twice. Nobody could brook the P.O.'s authority. He had a "look". Once given, you were to stop arguing. At once. No matter WHO you were. Because the case was closed....

    Yes, all who participated in Judicial Committees have caused damage.
    Yes, all who participated in any resulting shunning have caused damage.
    Damage to self-worth. Damage to the judged person's view of God. Damage even to those rendering the judgment. I'm sure the burdens are heavy.

    And we all ARE guilty of towing the line. Of wanting the paradise on earth to be true. Of subsuming our personal will and powers of reason to the collective. We were our own worst enemies. And we harmed others by buying into the lie.

    But some of us knew it was a lie and STILL recruited. THIS is the crux of the matter. Elders have the means and knowledge to recognize the lie BEFORE the average publisher. In almost ALL cases, to my mind, that would mean stepping down and curtailing field service as soon as possible given family circumstances.

    But that's just MY mind.

    Thanks again, AMNESIAN, for giving voice to so many.

    outnfree

    When the truth is found to be lies
    and all the joy within you dies ...
    -- Darby Slick, Somebody to Love

  • msil
    msil

    .

  • larc
    larc

    Outnfree,

    I think that some of this commentary amounts to Monday morning quarter backing. Trying to determine when and how someone should leave, after the fact, is of no value in my opinion. All of us had to make difficult, painful choices, and they were a source of much anguish. Also, for many of us, the process of going from true believer to disbeliever was a gradual one. In my own case, I went through several stages: true believer, believer with questions, believer with doubts, nonbeliever wishing I could believe, nonbeliever with no desire to ever go back. This whole process took nearly ten years. On hind sight, I could have gotten out sooner, but I am not sure how that could have happened. Fortunately, my wife and I were on the same page on this issue. If we had not been, I am sure I would have hung around a few years longer to get her out.

  • teejay
    teejay

    Julie,

    I don't think Amnesian's angry...

    I coulda swore she said she was angry. No matter... she seems angry. Don't she seem angry? Not at Brother Amazing, but at the harm that was/is done to good and powerless people on an ongoing regular basis. Hey, if you ask me, she has every reason to be angry. She was an elder's Number One sidekick for many years and could tell many horror stories, no doubt. I ain't mad at her for being angry. I sho' do like the way she lets it out, though. Myyyy goodness... a thing of beauty.

    ... and if you are smart you won't make her that way.

    You know I'm smart. You DO know that, don't you Julie? Julie? Julie? <looking at Julie, rolling her eyes>

    She looks like she could make you well acquainted with pain I've never even come close to inflicting on you.

    Compared to Amnesian, you're just a warm, fuzzy-wuzzy teddy bear with a cute nose. You know what I'm-a do? I'm gonna buddy-up with Sister Amnesian and get her to kick your butt so you'll stop pickin' on me. How's that?!!!

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