by AMNESIAN 126 Replies latest jw friends
Teejay and Ginny,
I am in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with both of you. I think that Ginny is right in that where we come from affects our perspective and our hot buttons. At the same time, I agree with you Teejay, that we should rise above it and deal with the issues in an objective fashion. I think we all try to do that, but I think it is damned tough.
I am in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with both of you.
Larc, it was bound to happen.
Sooner or later, you HAD to see the light of day and agree with me. The truth is a relentless thing, you know, with the capacity to wear away stone... not to say you're stone or anything. It takes time, sometimes, but the truth always wins.
My goodness, it's been a good day. I got Julie to drop the chip on her shoulder and engage me in playful banter (I like playful banter!), Larc agreeing with me... what next? Life is damn good! Rock on, JW.com!!
Teejay,
You think this is good. Check your uninvited e mail box for the obscene mail I sent you an hour ago. I hope it doesn't give you a heart attack.
I think the following scenario, though to an extent hypothetical, is nevertheless real and supportable by the existence of living people. It applies to virtually every theological point that the WTS either authored or espouses. For the sake of this post, let's take the Watchtower's policy on pedophilia within its ranks.
There are Governing Body members who know exactly what the Society's policy is for handling pedophiles at the local level: Must have two witnesses; if that stipulation is not met, the accused remains in good standing; either way, don't divulge the accused's identity to the membership, etc.
There are Wt lawyers, some perhaps serving as elders, charged by the GB with the responsibility for constructing a legally workable policy and helping to guide elders from all over the country (world?) who call Brooklyn with serious, life-altering questions relative to this issue.
DOs and COs who know the policy and pass it along to local elders.
Local elders who know the policy. These are the actual enforcers of the policy in behalf of the governing body -- perhaps the final stop-gap between harm and safety for the little ones in their cong. Mothers and fathers, people they know, people they associate with congregationally and socially, trust these men to protect the flock and their children from every conceivable threat. The elders do their duty in behalf of God's official spokesmen and faithfully carry out their orders.
Local elders who don't know the policy. I'm only assuming there is such an animal, basing the assumption on the fact that Bill was an elder many years and only recently learned what the policy was. Even so, even ignorant elders are equally thought to stand as a hedge against threats to those in his care in the cong.
Local publishers. I would say that the majority of these are totally clueless about the official Wt policy and vehemently denounce those who try to make the official policy known to them. Although ignorant of the policy, they defend the WTS, Jehovah's chosen mouthpiece, tooth and nail. Worse, they go from door to door with the intention of bringing more of their non-JW family and neighbors into the safe harbor of the local congregation of Jehovah's witnesses where nothing will harm them or their families, putting more children at risk.
All the players, from the GB member on down to clueless local publishers, are culpable. Are they equally so? If I understand her right, Amnesian's answer (and mine, wholeheartedly) is "NO."
Lark!!!???
How dare you invade, violate and otherwise disrespect my mailbox, you *^*%%&$^#^())&^*&^&^$^%$^^%^#^%#.
Furthermore, *%T&$^%#^%#^%$E#%IYTO(^TKJLKJO&^R$^%R^)Y*
Got it?
Yours truly,
tj
p.s. Thank you. It came a few days late but that's cool. It was an awesome gift!! Hit me close to home.
hi teejay,
Thanks for clarifying and amplifying this sentence in my post after Amnesians.
"There is no way in hell that those on the lowest end of the powerless scale can be equally culpable'.
I made this point in the thread Amazing wrote Amnesian in 'Amnesians Amnesia as well.
Yes,no one is free from responsibility,but as you put it,and just as in courts of law,there are degrees of culpability and responsibility and accountability.
Hi Ginny,
Some of those 12 steps you mentioned I used too post WTS. Especially the making amends when and where possible. I found it helped speed the healing process.
Tina
Vive Bene
Spesso L'amore
Di Risata Molto!!!
up!!!!
teejay, you spelled *%T&$^%#^%#^%$E#%IYTO(^TKJLKJO&^R$^%R^)Y*
wrong.
the correct spelling is:
*%T&$^TRHBGFV%#^%#^%$E#%IYTO(^TKJLKJO&^R$^%R^)Y*
Good discussion, everyone.
Can we please not forget that children are being raped, beaten and murdered all the time by members of this cult? Culpability is a real issue, not just a 'debate' or 'discussion' with regard to the Laree Slacks, the Kostelniuks, the Stovalls, the Eric Freemans, and 25 young faces on the front of an Awake magazine of the world. That's why I reacted so strongly to the issue.
I will not forget these (((((children))))).....
BITE ME, WATCHTOWER!!!
Dear larc and Ginny,
It was not my intention to "cast stones" or to tell ANYONE how and when s/he should leave. I recognize this is a highly personal decision and one that usually follows much agonizing and soul-searching.
In retrospect, I realize that my point of view was as someone who had CONVERTED to Jehovah's Witnessdom. (Those who were born into the organization might have a more difficult time understanding what I mean.)
As a convert to JWdom, I expected I had found quasi-Utopia. I BELIEVED in the spiritual paradise! I believed in the united brotherhood. I believed the Governing Body to be special, holy, pious, brothers of Christ representing God Himself. I bought into the teaching that I was special myself because I had been clever enough to find and accept the "Truth". I was convinced that the Society was not only RIGHT, but also RIGHTEOUS. I was certain that if God was merciful, I was never going to die. I accepted my place as a smart, articulate, competent woman who needed to be humble enough to let Brothers less intelligent, well-spoken, and organized than myself take the lead. (Often I felt it was to stoke their egos and shore up their self-respect, but nonetheless, there was much they were required to do that I would rather not do anyway. So be it.) I bought into the SYSTEM and became a cog in the wheels of Jehovah's ever-advancing chariot.
Really, I suppose I was quite gullible. As I mentioned earlier, I didn't get involved in too much gossip and was not savvy about how privileges were awarded in some cases. It never occurred to me that families would be slipping cash to visiting overseers. It never occurred to me that the larger one's donation the more favorably one would be viewed (that seemed so Catholic to me -- and we know how the Society detests all things Catholic. Wasn't buying family pews decried in WT publications? Wasn't accepting cash from mobsters reviled no matter what good it was used to accomplish?). It never occurred to me that brothers would manipulate their field service hours in conjunction with an upcoming CO's visit so that they would be considered for 'privileges'.
I BELIEVED that the COs were more or less pauper-martyrs, and that Holy Spirit actually DID operate in the selection of MSs, overseers, and the decisions of the Governing Body. Imagine! I actually thought that others of the 8,000 or so of the remnant had input into "new light" and that their suggestions were prayerfully considered by the Governing Body before being accepted or rejected!!!
Yes, I was ignorant of the organization's history, and insulated from its corruption. Perhaps being a "spiritual widow" and not being able to associate too closely with the 'friends' I was spared knowledge of instances of back-biting and other unloving or even scandalous behavior going on around me. Or perhaps I was just reveling in my little cocoon of smug sincerity and concentrating on spreading the message of God's kingdom government.
Oh, I truly thought Jehovah's Organization to be CLEAN, HONEST, NEUTRAL, UPRIGHT, AND AN EGLITARIAN BROTHERHOOD. I was deceived.
It took me quite a while to come to grips with that deception. And I'm sure it takes elders quite a while, too, to come to grips with the knowledge that all is NOT holy in Watch Tower Land. That the higher ups DON'T have any special insight or helpful knowledge to impart. (Just that rehash that JT was talking about!) And that the higher ups actually are aware of bad and harmful policies but choose not to remedy the hurt inflicted in so many important cases. That there is much to forgive and yet that the Society itself is never apologetic and is harshly UNforgiving.
Oh, larc!
I DO agree that there are several stages one must pass through before leaving. My own leaving was very gradual and I went through all the stages you enumerated. Also over almost 10 years...
I DON'T agree that I was ever "trying to determine when and how someone should leave, after the fact" in my previous post.
I DO believe that CONVERTS expect something true and righteous and good and holy. (Those born into the organization may see the nasty underbelly more quickly.) When they discover the lies and unrighteousness and wickedness and fraud, then the only choice for them is to leave. Some are only able to do this emotionally and intellectually, because they have family to consider. Some will abruptly walk out the door and never return. Others will give up their privileges, abandon field service and fade slowly. Some will try to share their knowledge to warn others and promptly be disfellowshipped. Some will do as I did and disassociate themselves, wanting the congregation to know that they have rejected the organization, rather than vice versa. And, apparently, some elders will stay hoping to mitigate harm and effect change from within.
ONCE THESE "INSIDE MEN" see that their efforts are largely futile, and once the personal cost becomes too great, they will leave or be kicked out, too.
I don't begrudge any one their staying or leaving.
What I DO take issue with is ex-elders saying that they had no more influence to harm than any regular publisher. That is just wrong!
One of my favorite scriptures (I SO appreciated my 'gifts in men'!) was Hebrews 13:16. But the KEY scripture supporting my viewpoint is Hebrews 13:7 "Remember those who are taking the lead among YOU, who have spoken the word of God to YOU, and as YOU contemplate how [their] conduct turns out imitate [their] faith."
ELDERS were certainly the ones to imitate, the ones whose conduct we were to contemplate, the ones who ran the meetings, organized things according to the Society's rules, cajoled, encouraged, reprimanded.
ELDERS had INFLUENCE!!! Elders were ROLE-MODELS. (I was a good publisher, but I was NEVER a role model for anyone but my own children! And in Monday-morning quarter-backing hindsight, a POOR role-model for my daughters!) ELDERS were JUDGES -- appointed by God's holy spirit! Holy spirit never appointed ME anything over ANYBODY!!!
Nobody hung on Sister Outnfree’s words, considered her pronouncements God-given advice rather than personal opinion, or elevated her to near infallible status. A 1999(?) Watchtower article (at which I took umbrage at the time) inferred that elders NEVER make mistakes, and if they DID, Jehovah would take care of it and no publisher need remark (or especially rebuke) upon it!!!
Sorry, guys. It is true all of us as Witnesses preached the same Kingdom message and tried to foist it on as many people as we could. But non-elder JW publishers did NOT have the means or status to read those playbill margin notes, and so had LESS of an idea of what sort of organization we ACTUALLY belonged to as the elders and other servants did. Therefore, we are less culpable – but not exonerated, either – from the results of supporting and promoting the “swill” coming from Brooklyn and dished out locally by elders.
GinnyT had it right when she said:
Whatever standards I use to judge elders, I feel I must first use to judge myself. If a "good elder" perpetuates the myth that the WTS is God's organization, I think a "good publisher" does the same. What varies is the degree of influence each may have.[bold mine]
outnfree
When the truth is found to be lies
and all the joy within you dies ... -- Darby Slick, Somebody to Love
Edited to correct quote
Outnfree,
I was raised in the religion and my perceptions were the same as yours. I thought we were God's chosen people.
As a boy, I did not hear about the scandels. If there were any, the adults kept them to themselves. I was also spared the abusive elder system. At that time, one man, the congregation servant, was responable for major decisions. Although, it sounds dictatorial, I think was better because one man was held accountable. I think the elder arrangement has a built in flaw. That is, that a group decision does not hold the inividual responible. The diffusion of resposibility leads to poor decisions. It allows two hard line, disciplinarians to run rough shod over a kinder, more merciful elder. This same principle applies to the GB, as Ray Franz found out. In this kind of arrangement, no one has to feel bad when a tragic mistake is made, because no one feels it is their fault.
Again, I have to come back to the point that a bad system is in place. A good system would minimize the damage that an uncaring or unthinking person could cause and maximize the good that should result. No system is perfect in any organization, but the elder system represents the worse case sceniario.
What compounds this poor system failure, is the lack of formal education of most elders, and the lack of quality internal training for the elders. This truely is a case of the blind leading the blind.
Having been out for a long time, I can take a relatively dispassionate view of the situation. I think my training in psychological research has helped as well. Even so, on a personal and emotional level, I find the current situation to be deplorable.
