AMAZING - Exposing Elders (re: Expose Ave...

by AMNESIAN 126 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  larc

  Danny,

  Simple questions are not necessarily simplistic, rather a means for clarification. Yes, I think someone can have enough objectivity to answer those questions, especially when significant time has gone by which should help induce objectivity.
• 

  DannyBear

  larc,

  First let me say, you read into my comments something I never said.

  I never said the CS arrangement was 'better than' the elder fiasco.

  I never claimed to have done anything other than be an elder...with all it's inherent evil. Good, bad, becomes mute by just the participation in and support of the program.

  I suppose I could start a whole new series of cases, actions, stupid remarks, wrong advice, bullheadedness, 1000's of public prayer's I offered in behalf of other cult member's, but that is my point larc. Why even try and justify your mistake, why couch the infamous affair in any other terms, than what it was. A BIG LIE, a farce, a charade.

  Now you get my point?

  Danny
• 

  larc

  Danny,

  Yes, I get your point. I think it was good one.

  Now, it seems to me that much of the discussion revolves around who is at fault or responsible from a moral point of view. I don't view it this way. I see it as a matter of ignorance compounded by a badly designed system. I suppose we could ask God to forgive us for our ignorance as well as our sins, though this concept rarely crosses our mind.

  No, you did not say the previous system was better. I did.

  Now, I was raised in it, and got out an early age. Does this make me more intelligent and/or more moral than others? I don't think so; I would doubt that others would either. Some of my getting out was a matter of luck.

  For those who haven't seen it, I would be interested in your feedback on my "Social Persuasion" thread. The whole body of knowledge in this area had a very humbling affect on me.
• 

  teejay

  Ginny,

  Whatever standards I use to judge elders, I feel I must first use to judge myself. If a "good elder" perpetuates the myth that the WTS is God's organization, I think a "good publisher" does the same. What varies is the degree of influence each may have.

  "What varies is the degree of power each has. Elders have more power than publishers and are therefore more culpable." I deliberately refrained from making that judgement.

  No problem. I can live with either quote since, as far as I'm concerned, they say essentially the same thing. I won't get caught up in a debate centered on definitions and semantics.

  It is beyond question that elders play a larger role in breathing life into the lies of the WTS, whether by talks, behavior, judicial action, etc. COs and DOs correspondingly play an even larger role, and the gb plays the largest. There is no escaping these facts.

  It must therefore be reasonably concluded that those higher up the ladder must be accorded greater and greater guilt. For anyone to suggest that John C or Suzy Q Publisher, with a possible influence over a household or two in the field ministry, has as much influence (ergo, culpability) as an elder who stands in front of a cong of sixty, a hundred, or in the case of assemblies, thousands, is ludicrous.

  You asked whether it was the elders or the beliefs that caused the harm? Obviously it's the beliefs, but the elders are very instrumental in seeing to it that every member of the flock toes the party line. Those who exercise unconventional beliefs and behaviors, regardless of how proper their motivation or how their conscience may lead, are smacked down to reality by an array of tools at the elder's disposal --some more painful and life-altering than others. I see your question this way: what causes the child pain... the belt or the parent who is doing the swinging? What is YOUR answer?

  You may THINK that the elders were on the periphery of your life as a JW, but you would be deluding yourself as much as people in California who believe that those idiots in D.C. have no impact on their lives. That's simply not true. Virtually every aspect of your life as a Witness is under the purview of the local elders. Every aspect. How you dress. The movies you watch. How you spend your free time. The classes you take in school. To a degree – what you did for a living. The list is endless. Oh, you were under their control... you just didn't realize it. Apparently, you still don't.

  Lastly, you asked

  Elders do often have more information, but are they able to mentally process what they know? Are they truly aware? Are they thinking clearly or has their thinking been clouded by their beliefs?

  All I'll say is that they are grown men. Bill Bowen, when he learned of it, questioned the Wt's policy on pedophiles. At his disposal was an inborn love of goodness and plain ol' common sense. These tools, available to virtually every living person, can be used to decipher the rightness or wrongness of many of the less-well-known procedures of the WTS of which elders are privy. I cannot say whether each of them "are truly aware" but I'd think they OUGHT TO BE. We aren't talking advanced trigonometry here.

  It is not a matter of nuance, either, or, as some suggest a matter of different perspectives based on one's race or gender. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Men in positions of authority have sold their souls for a taste of the Ps that Amnesian spoke of so eloquently. Men... elders... KNOW. Oh yeah, they know but allow themselves to be seduced by the fleshly privileges that come with the position.

  For that reason, they are more culpable. Period.
• 

  larc

  Organizational quotes,

  Except for the lead sled dog, each view is the same.

  Mushroom theory: keep them in the dark and feed them bull shit.

  Do you think our problem is ignorance or apathy? Answer: I don't know and I don't care.

  Crap slides down hill.

  Golden rule: those that have the gold make the rules.
• 

  teejay

  Larc, you've got me really curious about something.

  You keep saying that the system, the elder arrangement, is flawed. You suggest that the dictatorship it replaced was better. Is that what you mean?

  Earlier you asked Danny if as an elder he saw himself as a good person caught in a bad system, etc. Do you see a way of tweaking the elder arrangement to minimize, if not eliminate, the abuses of which Amnesian spoke about at the beginning of this thread?
• 

  larc

  Teejay,

  I meant just what I said. Under the old arrangement, one mature true elder was solely responsible, and there were fewer problems. When you and only you are responsible for a decision, you are much more careful than when you can say the group did it and therefore you are blameless. Research shows that group decisions can be worse for two reasons, difussion of responsibility and something called the risky shift. Risky shift means that groups tend to make more risky, bad decisions that can cause ruination, if not for themselves, for those affected by their decisions.

  Tweeking the system: someone on another thread suggested that they may, in the future, have only three members - the thre on the service committee be elders and get rid of the rest. This could be better if the three were truely mature Christians. Even here there are risks, the most notable being the tendency of the three to fall prey to Groupthink. I discussed the characteristics of GroupThink on another thread awhile back.

  Also, the system might improve if they got meaningful education on mental illness, developemental psychology, marriage counseling, etc, etc, rather than the tired rehash of old WT articles that they get now.

  The idiots should fly me to NY first class and pay me lots of money. I could straigten out some of their problems, ala, my thread, "The poor JW children."
• 

  GinnyTosken

  Teejay,

  It is beyond question that elders play a larger role in breathing life into the lies of the WTS, whether by talks, behavior, judicial action, etc. COs and DOs correspondingly play an even larger role, and the gb plays the largest. There is no escaping these facts.

  It must therefore be reasonably concluded that those higher up the ladder must be accorded greater and greater guilt. For anyone to suggest that John C or Suzy Q Publisher, with a possible influence over a household or two in the field ministry, has as much influence (ergo, culpability) as an elder who stands in front of a cong of sixty, a hundred, or in the case of assemblies, thousands, is ludicrous.

  This could be Watchtower rhetoric, Teejay. You've told me that your assertions are "beyond question," that there's "no escaping these facts," that it must be "reasonably concluded," and that suggesting otherwise is "ludicrous," but you have offered no evidence to support your point.

  You asked whether it was the elders or the beliefs that caused the harm? Obviously it's the beliefs, but the elders are very instrumental in seeing to it that every member of the flock toes the party line. Those who exercise unconventional beliefs and behaviors, regardless of how proper their motivation or how their conscience may lead, are smacked down to reality by an array of tools at the elder's disposal --some more painful and life-altering than others.

  Are those who exercise unconventional beliefs and behaviors smacked down only by elders? Are they not also smacked down by their Watchtower-trained conscience and by peer pressure?

  I see your question this way: what causes the child pain... the belt or the parent who is doing the swinging? What is YOUR answer?

  Both. The parent uses a tool to inflict pain on the child. Are elders a tool or are they doing the swinging?

  You may THINK that the elders were on the periphery of your life as a JW, but you would be deluding yourself as much as people in California who believe that those idiots in D.C. have no impact on their lives. That's simply not true. Virtually every aspect of your life as a Witness is under the purview of the local elders. Every aspect. How you dress. The movies you watch. How you spend your free time. The classes you take in school. To a degree – what you did for a living. The list is endless. Oh, you were under their control... you just didn't realize it. Apparently, you still don't.

  I can only speak from my personal experience. The choices I made in the areas you mention were influenced more by reading Watchtower literature and peer pressure than by fear of elders. No local elders ever interfered in these aspects of my life.

  Lastly, you asked, Elders do often have more information, but are they able to mentally process what they know? Are they truly aware? Are they thinking clearly or has their thinking been clouded by their beliefs? All I'll say is that they are grown men. Bill Bowen, when he learned of it, questioned the Wt's policy on pedophiles. At his disposal was an inborn love of goodness and plain ol' common sense. These tools, available to virtually every living person, can be used to decipher the rightness or wrongness of many of the less-well-known procedures of the WTS of which elders are privy. I cannot say whether each of them "are truly aware" but I'd think they OUGHT TO BE. We aren't talking advanced trigonometry here.

  I remember how my mind worked as a JW, and I am extremely reluctant to judge anyone for the same distorted thinking I once had myself.

  It is not a matter of nuance, either, or, as some suggest a matter of different perspectives based on one's race or gender. Right is right, wrong is wrong. Men in positions of authority have sold their souls for a taste of the Ps that Amnesian spoke of so eloquently. Men... elders... KNOW. Oh yeah, they know but allow themselves to be seduced by the fleshly privileges that come with the position.

  For that reason, they are more culpable. Period.

  If you were to question men in positions of authority, I think you would find that their motivations vary and are often very mixed. The four P's are likely part of the equation, but there are likely other factors, too--wanting to feel a part of something bigger than oneself, expectations of family and friends, wanting to do good.

  Without knowing why a man continues to be an elder, I will not judge him just because he is an elder.

  Ginny
• 

  DannyBear

  larc,

  I peer at the WTBS from a whole different perspective, I guess.

  To me, all this discussion relating to reform, improvement, salvaging the system is an exercise in futility. Sort of like trying to patch up the little cracks in the superstructure, when the whole foundation is rotten to the core.

  I believe that many who pursue this reform or repair, are still very much believer's in one or another WT teaching. They simply have not come to the conclusion that it's (org) very exsistence and being is all based on a big lie. They seem to want to retain some of the 'warm fuzzy' paradise earth, everlasting life, commaraderie that they have or experienced before.

  My view cannot possibly allow for such, since I have no reservations about who the WTBS is and was, since it's inception in the 1870's. Just another man-made empire, similar to any corporate enterprise with some history.

  If you remove the bible, faith, spirituality from the mix, you are left with a shell (system) that is flawed and evil by it's own essance.

  So I have no interest whatsoever in the redemption of the 'society', the thought is almost as abhorant to me now, as trying to reform the KKK...even if you did make progress, the heart's and mind's of it's adherents would and should be alway's suspect.

  The WTBS should cease to exsist. It will hang itself, given enough time to tighten it's own noose, its neck is so well placed and primed for the final strech. No one act or group of action will topple the bitch, it will do very well on it's own.

  Danny
• 

  larc

  Danny,

  Since I am an agnostic, I do not have any residual beliefs left over from my Witness days. Regarding changes, I was addressing Teejay's question regarding things they could do to reduce the human suffering within the system. Do I think they will make such changes? No. Would I help them make sweeping changes, which would amount to them mainstreaming? Probably.

  I don't see that they will simply collapse. More likely they will continue to weaken and fade into obscurity, unless they do mainstream, which seems unlikely.